Beta 4: neon/420a

Pimp_daddy_Patty · Post by **Pimp_daddy_Patty** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:00 am

I tried to hook up spark today and when i cranked the motor over it made a loud bang. It seems the LED's that my coil drivers are hooked up to don't light up when cranking. Actually only the one lights up once and it fires on an intake stroke (hence the backfire).

I'm also having a hard time keeping the afr even at idle, at one point it idles at 16:1 and then after a little drive or even hitting the gas, the afr's will drop to the 11's. It's not from heat soak of the IAT sensor, the temps stay the same, and it runs perfectly fine on MS1.

Here is MSQ:

UnaClocker · Post by **UnaClocker** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:34 am

That's weird, I have swapped back and forth a couple times with no problems. The MS2E chip defaults with some pretty crazy default settings. Perhaps you could post your MSQ for us to check out. That's really the only place your problem should be.

Post by **jsmcortina** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:11 am

UnaClocker wrote:The MS2E chip defaults with some pretty crazy default settings.

Care to share?

James

UnaClocker · Post by **UnaClocker** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:50 am

I should dig up some of my old threads really.. Let's see if I can remember.. Don't Multiply was on, secondary load was on and set in alpha-N.. I think those are two that really drove me nuts trying to tune initially. Then there are the learning curves.. I think there needs to be a section in the MS2E manual for former MS1E owners, explaining important differences.. Like the dwell.. My dwell is less than half what it was on the MS1E.. I had all kinds of driveability problems until I changed that. I know it's calculated different, but who'd have guessed that if 3.9ms worked before, 1.4ms is the new correct number.. heh..
You have to learn to upload the O2 sensor calibration after each flash. That'll drive you nuts if you didn't know about it.

Post by **jsmcortina** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:54 am

Are you sure this was with the default settings loaded rather than an "empty" start? Those aren't the defaults in the code.

The dwell issue is a good point though.

The sensor calibration is part of the way MS2 was written and we haven't yet figured out a way around it.
EDIT: I just figured out a possible way to do it with a change to the downloader. I've dropped Ken a PM to discuss it.
He's at the West Coast meet though so won't likely get it for a bit.

James

UnaClocker · Post by **UnaClocker** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:58 am

Yeah, I can live with the O2 thing, just saying it'd be a good thing to have in a quick reference "converting from MS1E" section of the manual. ;)
And yes, it's entirely possibly I went through and changed those two settings. I was kind of lost the first time I looked at the myriad of options in MS2.. ;) I kind of went through and tried to set everything to settings I thought they "should" be set to.

Maglin · Post by **Maglin** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:47 pm

I hear ya on the Dwell issue. Actually I think it's not MSII but an error in the time calc for MSI. When I checed the stock dwell on the Mitsu 4G63 it was 1.3 ms at idle and 1.8ms @ 2500 RPMS or maybe the other way around. Anyways most run 3.3ish ms on the MSI. That setting got my igniter pretty toasty. I took it down to 1.3ms and it still runs great all the way to 20 PSI with my plugs gapped to .028".

Anyways. I also had the same issue with no ignition on cranking. It was grounding the coils on cranking and every now and then the LED would flash. Also it wouldn't inject fuel during crank. It would prime and that was it. Turned out to be a bad MSQ. I might have accidentally changed a setting while in offline mode doing some review. Loaded a known good MSQ and changed the settings I needed changed at it was working great. It would be nice to just have a MSII stimulator for configuring MSQ's on the desktop w/o having to pull the MS out of the car.

Anyways. UnaClocker I would start a new MSQ. Either reflash and reset it up (with all your current settings already written down somewhere) or start going through all your old MSQ's till you find one that has proper ignition while cranking.

Pimp_daddy_Patty · Post by **Pimp_daddy_Patty** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:47 pm

The dwell and O2 calibration are not my problem. I know that your actual dwell after is about 3.x ms after voltage compensation and mine is set to 1.4ms. As far as injection, it injects fuel on crank, which is why i can get the motor started and running when using the stock PCM for spark.

I'm running PCB v2.2. I AM supposed to hook the coil drivers to the 2 outer LED's correct? Has anyone looked at the MSQ I attached?

Pimp_daddy_Patty · Post by **Pimp_daddy_Patty** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:19 am

Update: started from a blank MSQ and retuned everything from scratch. The VE bins look much better, and tuning seems easier with a more stable AFR. Still no spark on crank though.

UnaClocker · Post by **UnaClocker** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:22 am

Is your coil getting 12v (center pin) during cranking?

Post by **jsmcortina** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:26 am

Pimp_daddy_Patty wrote:Update: started from a blank MSQ

You do mean that you loaded the default MSQ or started from a freshly flashed chip don't you?

Starting with Megatune offline and entering numbers is a sure way to get a bad configuration.

James

Pimp_daddy_Patty · Post by **Pimp_daddy_Patty** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:07 am

jsmcortina wrote:
Pimp_daddy_Patty wrote:Update: started from a blank MSQ
You do mean that you loaded the default MSQ or started from a freshly flashed chip don't you?

Starting with Megatune offline and entering numbers is a sure way to get a bad configuration.

James

I started from the default msq....seems to run a lot better than before. The LEDs still aren't flashing during crank. Only the one flashes once radomly.

Is your coil getting 12v (center pin) during cranking?

Yup, it has the same source as the stock spark (i have 2 pigtails to switch back and forth). But it doesn't matter cuz no flash on the LEDs means no signal to the coil. It starts just fine with MS1.

Maglin · Post by **Maglin** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:42 am

Pimp. You do know that when the MS charges the coil it's causes the LED to go out. So if the coil isn't firing when they are lit. I don't believe their is a way to change that without a bit of added circuitry which I doubt you did. I would suspect your pull up circuits for your coils.

md95 · Post by **md95** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:47 pm

I checked out your msq...a few very important things here: the secondary load perameters: "more engine constants", you have "dont multiply" for map. If you want this to act like MS1 Extra, set it for "multiply". I figure this is why you have your req fuel set so low at 3.0. Set the req fuel to what it should be using the calculator. Next, try a batery correction of 0.20. Under ignition settings, you have 0.00 for trigger angle, NOT SURE if this has been changed from past Alpha codes, but i had mine set for 60.00 degrees. If you are using VB921's to fire the coilpack, then leave it set for "inverted". If you are using a OEM ignitor module such as the Mitsu PTU, then set for "normal". Max dwell duration is pretty low, try 3.0 ms. Try a max spark duration of 1.0 ms. Set cranking dwell for 6.0 ms. Turn off injector sequencing for now, until you get it running better too. As for the dwell and voltage compenstation, your table is set for around 100% at 14 volts, so if your car has around 14 volts while running, it's going to get your current set dwell of 1.4ms, which is too LOW. You need to set the proper max dell time first, then adjust your table to what voltages your car normally sees. You should have max dwell prob no more than 3.5 ms, and at 14 volts, you should have 100%. Lower voltages should be more dwell, ie higher %, and higher voltages lower %.

UnaClocker · Post by **UnaClocker** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:04 pm

UnaClocker wrote:I should dig up some of my old threads really.. Let's see if I can remember.. Don't Multiply was on, secondary load was on and set in alpha-N.. I think those are two that really drove me nuts trying to tune initially. Then there are the learning curves.. I think there needs to be a section in the MS2E manual for former MS1E owners, explaining important differences.. Like the dwell.. My dwell is less than half what it was on the MS1E.. I had all kinds of driveability problems until I changed that. I know it's calculated different, but who'd have guessed that if 3.9ms worked before, 1.4ms is the new correct number.. heh..
You have to learn to upload the O2 sensor calibration after each flash. That'll drive you nuts if you didn't know about it.

We already discussed dwell in this thread.. MS2E needs a helluvalot more dwell than MS1E.. I hadn't considered editting the voltage correction tables (actually, didn't know it had any that I could edit), but it seems like a bit of a hack, I assume the tables came from Bruce/Al, and they know what they are doing..

md95 · Post by **md95** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:02 pm

UnaClocker wrote: MS2E needs a helluvalot more dwell than MS1E..

No it doesnt, providing you have your voltage correction table set up properly. MS1 Extra referenced 12 volts, MS2 references 14, so its pretty simple to figure out what your tables should be. 100% is no correction, and since its referenced at 14 votls, you want to have 100% @ 14 volts. I would use a max dwell time of around 3.5 ms..should be plenty of dwell time. If anyone has to lower max dwell time to 1.xx ms, then your table must not be setup properly.

Dieselgeek i know measured the OEM dwell on the 4g63 setup a long time ago, and he said it was in the 3.4 ms range.. I dont know how you(maglin) measured such a different value?

UnaClocker · Post by **UnaClocker** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:07 pm

I'm using the default table. The VB's just about smoke if I set the dwell to 3+ms. If the default table is incorrect, that should be brought up in the Bugs thread..

md95 · Post by **md95** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:09 pm

UnaClocker wrote:I'm using the default table. The VB's just about smoke if I set the dwell to 3+ms. If the default table is incorrect, that should be brought up in the Bugs thread..

What are the values in the default table? What voltage does MT report as your car is running?

I use 3.4 ms on the 4g63 with MS2 Extra, and the OEM ignitor isnt getting fried at all..heck, i've done 3+ hour road trips on the car..still running strong. Makes me wonder if something else isnt right with either the 420a code, or what..I use a CDI box to fire my 420a coilpack, so unfortunately i cant test how hot ignitors get adjusting the dwell time.. Maybe James can chime in here and explain the dwell values and issues?

UnaClocker · Post by **UnaClocker** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:27 pm

14.5-14.7volts usually seen by MS.

md95 · Post by **md95** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:35 pm

Hmm interesting. I have no idea why people have had to lower dwell times from MS1 Extra..I can prob play around with the dwell times on my 4g63, and see how low i can get it, and it not misfire. I'll also try and get some more run time in on the 420a this week..load up the latest beta code and see what happens..I've got the 4g63 running great for now, so maybe i can devote more 420a testing time

For the poster: If you still have issues with the spark output, try to actually re-load the CODE, not just an msq file. Sometimes if you get a corrupt code burn, you can get the issues you describe..