MS2/extra beta 6 (20070722)

tk_tech · Post by **tk_tech** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:12 pm

hey scott,

i am running this motor in my 1963 f-100. i am looking for a suitable drag car right now.

tuning is coming along well, having problems with loading up and take off. bogs really bad. but if you come on to her at a reasonable rate she takes off. i haven't even got over 60% throttle and i am doing 100mph in 2nd.

this is my first day tuning so i think i am making good progress.

i am waiting to use dual table, and 2 o2 sensors, bugs are being fixed if i read right.

hey james, when i change my settings from port injection to throttle body it definitly changes something. idle changes completely

karlo · Post by **karlo** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:02 pm

I spent a few days trying to control ignition on my odd fire V6. After a lot of cursing it turned out almost successful. What finally got me were the coils that just wouldn't fire right with any dwell configuration, although they work just fine with the Lumenition modules. (I would encounter spark dropout at 1300 rpms or 2000 rpms, depending on the trigger angle?! It made no sense, and I just couldn't figure it out.)

My engine has a funny stock setup with dual coils and dual distributors. In order to keep things as close to stock as possible, I decided on using the Twin Trigger mode.

A few changes needed to be made in order to get the engine running, the triggers in Twin Trigger mode are swapped so that the regular trigger fires coil B, and for odd fire to work you will have enter the big angle rather than the small angle. That was an easy enough change to make in the code.

Also, I couldn't get a proper map signal. It appears that the new map polling interacts poorly with odd fire engines, probably since odd fire engines will have different manifold vacuums depending on which bank fired. I solved this by polling the map signal only on one bank. Gave a perfect result.

Anyways, I've attached a patch with the changes I made. I'd appreciate it if this or similar changes could be made to upcoming releases.

I also hacked Twin Trigger mode to handle 6 cylinders, but I'll keep that messy code to myself. It's not very hard to add code for that anyways.

Post by **muythaibxr** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:47 pm

I'll probably include the MAP sampling parts in one form or another, I might make a few slight changes.

I'll let James review the oddfire changes.

Ken

MegaScott · Post by **MegaScott** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:01 pm

muythaibxr wrote:I'll probably include the MAP sampling parts in one form or another, I might make a few slight changes.

Ken

That's a good addition, rave reviews from the guy's running ITB's.

S.

karlo · Post by **karlo** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:17 pm

Excellent, thanks!

Post by **muythaibxr** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:12 am

MegaScott wrote:
muythaibxr wrote:I'll probably include the MAP sampling parts in one form or another, I might make a few slight changes.

Ken
That's a good addition, rave reviews from the guy's running ITB's.

S.

I already made the map sampling changes, I'm talking about the oddfire changes that karlo made.

Ken

MegaScott · Post by **MegaScott** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:17 am

muythaibxr wrote: I already made the map sampling changes, I'm talking about the oddfire changes that karlo made.

Ken

Sorry about that Ken,

I try to read all the post's, Really, It's hard to keep up with all the changes. You guy's continue to do an awesome job!!

Scott

Post by **muythaibxr** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:57 pm

Alright, quick update:

I've reproduced both the distributor ignition miss, and Keithg's ignition miss.

The distributor ignition miss happens when there's rpm jitter right around where dwell changes from "1 tooth back" to "2 teeth back." To solve this problem, we're going to start scheduling a dwell event off the previous spark (similar to how ms1/extra does it) so that during these odd transitional periods, we don't lose dwell. At other times, dwell will be scheduled properly, so will disable the "other scheduled" dwell.

The ignition miss Keithg is experiencing is because the way the code is written right now, it's actually scheduling the next dwell AFTER the spark event, which would work fine, except when the beginning of dwell runs up against the internal "trigger teeth" we start losing it because of some calculations going negative. I can fix this one pretty easily by making the trigger teeth go "more negative" but there are some other fixes I'd like to try as well, and I'd like to discuss with James first.

Other than this, I tested all the wheel modes I could with "normal" dwell settings, and was unable to get any kind of missing or other bad behavior, so I think any other issues people think they have are just tuning issues.

I took the corolla out on beta6 today, and it ran pretty well. I took it most of the way to the redline, and I didn't get any ignition misses or anything of that nature. It looks like I need to tune ignition a bit, retune fuel, and tune EAE (just the cruise RPM range really), but that'll have to happen after we redo the harness and get the body work done, as the next time I see the car, the engine is coming out!

I tinkered around with PID idle speed control as well, and it worked beautifully. I couldn't ever get closed-loop idle-speed control to do anything useful with ms1, but it took me about 10 minutes of tinkering to get it to act like most OEM algorithms act with the PID algorithm.

Also, a bit of a heads up... EAE will likely need retuned when we release the next beta. I have made the variables "per channel." I'm not quite done with this, and I'm doing some work to try to minimize the amount of retuning necessary, but I still think there'll be a noticable difference for most people.

It may be a while before I get time to fix the rest of the known bugs, and I don't want to release another beta until all the known bugs are fixed, I'm going to try to get some coding done tomorrow on the ignition issues but it could be a while before we release beta 7. For peoples' individual problems, I may contact the people having the problems individually, and give them test s19 files to fix their specific problems though.

Ken

Keithg · Post by **Keithg** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:50 am

Woo Hoo! Thanks Ken!

KeithG

Ballistic · Post by **Ballistic** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:26 am

Thanks for the update Ken, and thanks for including some of the details of what was occurring.

karlo · Post by **karlo** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:31 am

This may be the issue that I ran into with the twin trigger setup on my oddfire V6. I got spark dropouts that would change along with the trigger angle and dwell settings.

Post by **jsmcortina** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:15 pm

karlo wrote:A few changes needed to be made in order to get the engine running, the triggers in Twin Trigger mode are swapped so that the regular trigger fires coil B, and for odd fire to work you will have enter the big angle rather than the small angle. That was an easy enough change to make in the code.

Without meaning to sound silly, couldn't you have wired the spark inputs and outputs the other way around and left the code as standard ?

James

Post by **muythaibxr** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:42 pm

Ballistic wrote:Thanks for the update Ken, and thanks for including some of the details of what was occurring.

I think I've got a fix for you, can you PM me your email address? I'll send you an s19 to try.

Ken

karlo · Post by **karlo** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:12 pm

Well, I'm pretty sure I got it right, and from what I could see, the code was at fault too. The sync code simply swapped tooth 1 and 2. Not that important for even fire engines, but made a big difference for my odd fire engine.

Ballistic · Post by **Ballistic** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:08 pm

Ken, I ran the s19 you sent and it seemed OK. I didn't make it to the interstate, and don't have that many miles with this version, so I'll reserve judgment at this point, but I did vary the RPM around the area where I'd had trouble before and didn't experience any irregularities.

I'm guessing this version had some other changes as well? My VE table was off by quite a bit. I didn't recreate from scratch this time, but loaded my previous msq.

Post by **muythaibxr** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:14 pm

VE table won't be affected, but you may have to mess with EAE.

EAE had definite changes in it. I've tried to minimize the changes to reduce the amount of retuning needed for it, but there will definitely be some retuning.

Ken

Keithg · Post by **Keithg** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:53 am

Ken,

Any word on when I may be able to try a fix for this?

KeithG

muythaibxr wrote:Alright, quick update:

I've reproduced both the distributor ignition miss, and Keithg's ignition miss.

<snip>The ignition miss Keithg is experiencing is because the way the code is written right now, it's actually scheduling the next dwell AFTER the spark event, which would work fine, except when the beginning of dwell runs up against the internal "trigger teeth" we start losing it because of some calculations going negative. I can fix this one pretty easily by making the trigger teeth go "more negative" but there are some other fixes I'd like to try as well, and I'd like to discuss with James first.

<snip>
Ken

Post by **muythaibxr** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:28 am

When we've made the fix. Neither James nor I have had time to mess with it yet.

Ken

Post by **muythaibxr** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:53 pm

Ballistic wrote:Ken, I ran the s19 you sent and it seemed OK. I didn't make it to the interstate, and don't have that many miles with this version, so I'll reserve judgment at this point, but I did vary the RPM around the area where I'd had trouble before and didn't experience any irregularities.

I'm guessing this version had some other changes as well? My VE table was off by quite a bit. I didn't recreate from scratch this time, but loaded my previous msq.

Have you gotten to the interstate yet? I may also give you couple more s19's with different methods of doing the EAE changes to try to minimize impact to the people already using EAE.

Ken

Ballistic · Post by **Ballistic** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:30 pm

Today I ran 30 minutes or so at the speed that was causing problems earlier and everything seemed OK. My runtime today was about 90 minutes.

I need to recheck my O2 sensor calibration, and may reenter my settings from scratch because my VE table is rich by ~20%.