My misfiring problem.

UnaClocker · Post by **UnaClocker** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:49 pm

I know, you hate when I find a bug. Remember my complaints about the new map code? I still think there's something about it that is not working with my setup. Let me lay out my facts, and then you can try to find a hole in my logic.
Problem occurs in Beta 6, revision 2 (the one that got the AIS to work)
Problem is: Car will not rev cleanly past 5grand, it starts missing as early as 4 grand, and flat out feels like a rev limitter by 5500.
Attempt 1: Change the lags. I changed several of them, quite a bit. It made no difference.
Attempt 2: Change the dwell. I raised it a little at a time with no improvement till I reached 2.2ms, at which point the VB921's would get too hot to touch after a 30 minute drive. So I set it back down to a safe and sane 1.6ms (Car seems to drive just fine with it as low as 1.3ms, prior to this problem)
I did some datalogging to try and catch the problem in a log. I have a datalog with me tapping the spacebar twice while it was missing. Nice short log. And I know you'll want my MSQ too. So I have both in one zip file here:
http://www.turbododge.info/datalog_and_msq.zip
Attempt 3: This is where I started wondering if the new Neon numbers weren't as correct as I had originally indicated they were. So I saved my latest MSQ, and downgraded to Beta 4. I knew Beta 4 still had the option to try both sets of angles. I uploaded my MSQ, and set the angles to the old ones. Took it out for a test drive and let it get up to temp. I proceded to do some full throttle pulls just over 6 grand in 1st and 2nd. No missing. Ok, pull over, turn the car off, swap back to new angles. Fire it up and off I go. Same deal, no missing?!? I did about a dozen full throttle pulls. There is some minor missing, but you almost can't tell it's there. Nothing like what I get with Beta 6..
So, should I test Beta 5 out now? I think Beta 5 was just fine too, if I remember right.

Post by **muythaibxr** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:38 am

If I remember correctly, beta 2 had the new MAP code, so the new MAP code is probably not the problem.

Did you load your settings from the older msq? Or did you recreate it? I can't think of anything that I've changed from beta 4 to beta 6 that should have the effect you're noticing.

EDIT: And I don't hate when anyone finds a bug... but I need all the data to reproduce it, and often when you report a bug, you go back and change some settings, and the bad behavior goes away. We also usually wait for more than 1 person to report a problem unless that person has been correct every single time he reports a bug.

Ken

UnaClocker · Post by **UnaClocker** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:42 pm

Ok.. Were you in the middle of changing something in the ignition code when you released the S19 with the IAC fixes?
Maybe I got a bad flash with Beta 6.. I guess I could try putting it back and trying again.
And yes, that's the exact same MSQ I used with both betas.. No changes were made to any of my settings.

Post by **jsmcortina** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:04 pm

We are always in the middle of changing ignition code !

I doubt these "bad flash" claims, I don't think I've ever had one with hundreds of re-flashes.

James

UnaClocker · Post by **UnaClocker** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:09 pm

I agree on the bad flashes. I haven't changed PC's or anything, it'd be odd for it to suddenly have an issue.
So maybe my miss is due to getting into the middle of your ignition upgrades? I can accept that, I'll stay with Beta 4 till 7 comes out, I can live without the IAC control for a bit, and I'll change my radiator fan back to the FIdle output.

Post by **muythaibxr** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:29 pm

There really haven't been any changes in the ignition code that would affect the mode you run. Again I'd suggest rebuilding your msq if you're having trouble.

Ken

UnaClocker · Post by **UnaClocker** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:06 pm

It's the same MSQ I used in both Beta 6 and 4.. Anyways, I download Beta 7 and loaded the same MSQ again. I'll give it a whirl on the trip to work in the morning and see what I get out of it.

Post by **muythaibxr** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:15 am

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. If we add settings, sometimes that makes older msq's not work. Recreating the msq from scratch often fixes problems in those cases.

Ken

UnaClocker · Post by **UnaClocker** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:30 pm

What was changed between Beta 6 and Beta 4? Injector timing at all? How about that after spark dwell you had been working on for the Saab ignition? Something that changed has caused this problem.
I can't just stick with Beta 4 because it doesn't have IAC control, and PA0 wasn't fixed yet in B4.

Post by **muythaibxr** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:07 pm

When you swapped back to the "new angles" in beta 4, did you reboot the MS before or after you switched?

Also, I did remove the older way of setting up injector sequencing. The settings are still in megatune but they don't do anything.

I did this as a precursor to simplifying the method of doing semi-sequential setup.

Ken

UnaClocker · Post by **UnaClocker** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:59 pm

Yeah, shut down engine, turn ignition on, change angles, burn, ignition off, on, start, test.. I thought for sure the problem was those angles. I don't see how it can run so well on the wrong numbers. Somehow it does. Next guess was maybe when adding the new injector staging stuff, you had removed the ability for it to just do what it had always done in the past. Whatever that happend to be. But it really feels more like a timing problem, feels like hitting a timing retard overboost at 5grand, I have no usable power past 5 grand, and the car sounds like it's hitting a rev limitter. I could record some video of it sometime, but I doubt it'd help troubleshooting.

Post by **muythaibxr** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:02 am

Did you ever rebuild your msq like I asked?

Ken

UnaClocker · Post by **UnaClocker** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:07 am

No, hadn't done that. Seemed pointless, but I'll do that today just to eliminate it as a possibility.
Flash a fresh image to the chip, import my VE, AFR, and spark tables, and set a few other constants, and try it out? I can give that a shot.

UnaClocker · Post by **UnaClocker** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:12 am

Ok. Flashed on Beta 8 and recreated my MSQ. I didn't turn on anything that didn't have to be on, like the rev limitter, it's off completely. So anyways, I've been running the MS1 for the past week now, simply because the car runs FLAWLESSLY on it.. Even Beta 4 wasn't perfect, I still had ignition dropouts, just not undriveably bad like Beta 6. Well, with Beta 8 and my brand new MSQ, I still have the same problems. And I noticed something else, I have low RPM missing now too. Pretty bad missing actually. I captured it in a datalog and hit the spacebar right after each miss to mark them. The higher RPM's misses go by alot faster so it was harder to tag them, but I tried. You might ask, why am I trying to go full throttle at 1500rpm? Well my engine has tons of power and torque down there, with the MS1 I can accelerate well enough from 1500rpm to pass cars on a 2 way road, the MS2 won't let me do that.
You can view my MSQ and my datalog here:
http://www.turbododge.info/datalog_and_msq.zip
I don't know what to say, something is seriously wrong for me, I don't know why nobody else has this problem, I'm half tempted to weld a 36-1 wheel to my crank pulley and put EDIS on the darn thing and run the stock MS2 code. I'm just frustrated. I've read the MS2's Beta thread, and when people find a bug in that, Al seems to accept the bug, track it down, and fix it, rather than blaming the user's setup. It looked like a much more pleasant environment. And I only say that as constructive criticism.

MegaScott · Post by **MegaScott** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:45 am

Unaclocker wrote: I don't know what to say, something is seriously wrong for me, I don't know why nobody else has this problem,

I understand this scenario, I had the exact problems such as you describe then found out that the Advanced ignition options (under the advanced menu) are set to "Simple" by default, and the Dizzy setup I run requires the trigger mask be set to a certain setup for it to work at all rpm's or I get the symptoms you describe. I set it up on the bench running the Stimulator, and adjust the mask looking at the output with a scope to get consistant spark output at all rpm ranges, including cranking. Seems to work ok now, even with my uneven dizzy trigger wheel size. (Ford signature PIP)

teg · Post by **teg** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:59 am

Looks like you have simple false triggering method. That was causing lot of problems for mee too. Try with advanced method.

Ps. Scale your VE table, you're only using values 30-99. Try to scele max values up to 200.

Post by **muythaibxr** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:22 am

Al seems to accept the bug, track it down, and fix it, rather than blaming the user's setup. It looked like a much more pleasant environment. And I only say that as constructive criticism.

I also accept bugs I can reproduce. I've tried to reproduce your bug, and can't.

In fact, I tried to reproduce it as soon as I first saw you report it, and I immediately went and looked to see if any code changes could've caused your problem. I treat all bug reports the same. If I can't reproduce a bug, then I suggest settings changes to try to fix it. Often if changing settings doesn't fix it, then changing settings helps illuminate something that might help me reproduce it.

There have also been several cases where you report a "bug" then change some settings, and the "bug" goes away.

When I have a user reporting problems and they've ALWAYS been right (there are several here) I go and take a look immediately, but when I have a user who has reported bugs, then in nearly every case, was able to change a setting and fix the problem, I'm sure you'll understand that I'll go look at the other bugs first.

Nothing having to do with your ignition mode has even changed since beta 4 aside from the "new" and "old" tooth widths, and you've said that they both work fine for you in beta 4.

All that said, I'll take a look around and see if I can find anything that's changed since beta 4 that could cause your problems, but I'm not confident that I'll be able to find anything.

Also, I don't think the false triggering method will affect wheel modes at all, only dizzy. Missing might just mean that the sync code is not staying in sync properly.

Ken

UnaClocker · Post by **UnaClocker** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:58 pm

Mmm, Like the time I said Port PA0 didn't work.. And for months it HAD to be something with my setup.. Finally when it got fixed "I don't know how this could have ever worked".. WTF! There were a couple others, but whatever.
So we agree, there is no setting I have selected that could improve my problem? And yes, I agree, it feels like a wheel sync problem.

Post by **muythaibxr** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:03 pm

Not trying to get into an argument here, but that was one time out of several.

I didn't say every time you report something it's a setting, I said that almost every time, you changed a setting and it fixed your problem.

I can remember 2 cases out of probably 5 or 6 (maybe more) where there was an actual bug when you reported something.

In any case, aside from the PA0 issue, I've pretty much looked at every issue you've reported before suggesting it was an issue with settings. I only suggested it without looking for the PA0 issue because we didn't change that code... turns out there was a bug in the original code that we started with from MS2 2.6xx. With issues like that we also usually wait for more than 1 person to report it. We have limited time to work on stuff, so I don't want to go chasing problems that don't exist instead of fixing problems we know exist.

We have a much larger codebase to deal with because of all the extra features we support, so we try to make sure that we use the time we have for coding in the most efficient manner possible.

Ken

wes kiser · Post by **wes kiser** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:24 am

I ran standard B and G code for a while, and have ran extra 2 code for a while as well. I have encountered bugs with both, and in both cases the developers have fixed them very rapidly.

For them to fix it, they have to be able to reproduce the problem, or you must be able to tell them exactly what triggered it, and what moved. Many people are running MS2-E now, and it ran great for them.

Be patient and find what causes your issue. Is RPM wiggling around near the miss? What about battery voltage? If you put a timing light on it when it is missing at low rpm, what does it do? Does PW move when it misses?