MS2/Extra 2.0 beta 16 (20071122)

This is a forum for discussing the development and testing of alpha MS2/Extra code. Documentation
(Runs on MS2 and Microsquirt)

Moderators: jsmcortina, muythaibxr

JeroenBosma
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 136
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:07 am
Location: The Netherlands

Post by JeroenBosma »

I have the same symptons. I'll flash the new firmware in. Let's see if it helps. There are new features to filter these spikes (are they spikes ?)
Volvo 242GT Turbo
MSII/Extra
Quad VB921 (True COP)
BiFeul trough switching tables (LPG / Petrol)
TechEdge 2E0 WBO2
md95
Master MS/Extra'er
Posts: 721
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:44 pm
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Contact:

Post by md95 »

JeroenBosma wrote:I have the same symptons. I'll flash the new firmware in. Let's see if it helps. There are new features to filter these spikes (are they spikes ?)
From my datalog, it doesn't look like tach spikes or ignition dropouts, mostly because of how the MS is behaving during the issue. It behaves just like doing a data burn on the fly(you get that quick stumble, and a few things reset like IAC, ASE, EGO). I can see how this issue could be mistaken for misfires, resets, or other odd engine behavior though..which is why maybe some have dismissed it for lost wheel syncs??
-Matt-
1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS 420A Turbo- MS2 Extra- 2.1.0 Release
1992 Plymouth Laser RS 4g63 AWD Turbo MS2 Extra- 3.0.3s
muythaibxr
Site Admin
Posts: 8228
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 12:48 pm

Post by muythaibxr »

Based on the behavior (ASE coming on, etc) I'd say it IS a lost sync, just one that shouldn't be happening.
JeroenBosma
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 136
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:07 am
Location: The Netherlands

Post by JeroenBosma »

I switched off trigger prediction and it was gone.

Does that help ? It helped me for sure.

I had it on the Beta 17 aswell.
Volvo 242GT Turbo
MSII/Extra
Quad VB921 (True COP)
BiFeul trough switching tables (LPG / Petrol)
TechEdge 2E0 WBO2
muythaibxr
Site Admin
Posts: 8228
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 12:48 pm

Post by muythaibxr »

Prediction for generic wheels is completely different in beta 17 compared to earlier betas... Is that the setting you're talking about?

Ken
md95
Master MS/Extra'er
Posts: 721
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:44 pm
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Contact:

Post by md95 »

Ken, have you had a chance to check out my datalog yet? Just curious if you saw something of interest that i didnt..
-Matt-
1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS 420A Turbo- MS2 Extra- 2.1.0 Release
1992 Plymouth Laser RS 4g63 AWD Turbo MS2 Extra- 3.0.3s
UnaClocker
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 1933
Joined: Fri May 07, 2004 12:59 pm
Location: Tacoma, WA
Contact:

Post by UnaClocker »

muythaibxr wrote:Based on the behavior (ASE coming on, etc) I'd say it IS a lost sync, just one that shouldn't be happening.
Sounds like he did, md..
Brian
'84 Dodge Rampage
muythaibxr
Site Admin
Posts: 8228
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 12:48 pm

Post by muythaibxr »

I have not really looked too closely at it, as you won't always catch lost sync there if it happens really fast.

Anyway, if you could post your most up-to-date msq, I'll try to take a look at the problem on the bench... The plan is to run a long-term test with the BDM hooked up and a breakpoint set in the code that checks for lost sync. I'll let it run and go out somewhere, when I come back, if it's sitting in that breakpoint, I'll know something went wrong, and will be able to check all the necessary variables to try to get an idea of what is causing it.

ken
md95
Master MS/Extra'er
Posts: 721
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:44 pm
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Contact:

Post by md95 »

Latest msq in in this thread, one page back.. It seems this issue mostly occurs at 3k and above, after maybe 20-30 minutes of driving. Mostly highway driving...dont think i've ever really noticed it happen just around town driving, although i dont drive around town for 30+ minutes at a time either for the most part. I've got all the wiring straightened out on the car, and am using my known good test CAS on the engine now as well, so i believe i have ruled out any wiring/hardware possible issues at this point. I would think running the test for a good hour should be enough..it's always happened at least once or twice by then. Thanks Ken.
-Matt-
1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS 420A Turbo- MS2 Extra- 2.1.0 Release
1992 Plymouth Laser RS 4g63 AWD Turbo MS2 Extra- 3.0.3s
muythaibxr
Site Admin
Posts: 8228
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 12:48 pm

Post by muythaibxr »

Alright, just wanted to make sure you had not changed any of your settings since posting that msq.

Ken
md95
Master MS/Extra'er
Posts: 721
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:44 pm
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Contact:

Post by md95 »

muythaibxr wrote:Alright, just wanted to make sure you had not changed any of your settings since posting that msq.

Ken
Nope, haven't changed anything since then...I was going to try out Beta 17, but i will hold off until you can have a look and see if you can find any issues and have any ideas or a fix to try out..thanks again.
-Matt-
1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS 420A Turbo- MS2 Extra- 2.1.0 Release
1992 Plymouth Laser RS 4g63 AWD Turbo MS2 Extra- 3.0.3s
md95
Master MS/Extra'er
Posts: 721
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:44 pm
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Contact:

Post by md95 »

Any updates Ken? No rush, just checking up.
-Matt-
1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS 420A Turbo- MS2 Extra- 2.1.0 Release
1992 Plymouth Laser RS 4g63 AWD Turbo MS2 Extra- 3.0.3s
muythaibxr
Site Admin
Posts: 8228
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 12:48 pm

Post by muythaibxr »

I've not been able to get it to do anything weird on the bench. That was leaving it running for a couple of hours.

However, Jerry was seeing some odd problems similar to yours but with ms1. We looked at some scope traces from that setup, and it looks like there could be some noise on his second trigger.

Your issues could be related or even the same.

I'm going to run another test and leave it running today and see if anything comes up though.

Ken
md95
Master MS/Extra'er
Posts: 721
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:44 pm
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Contact:

Post by md95 »

muythaibxr wrote:I've not been able to get it to do anything weird on the bench. That was leaving it running for a couple of hours.

However, Jerry was seeing some odd problems similar to yours but with ms1. We looked at some scope traces from that setup, and it looks like there could be some noise on his second trigger.

Your issues could be related or even the same.

I'm going to run another test and leave it running today and see if anything comes up though.

Ken
Hmm interesting. IIRC, i'm using a 470 ohm 5 volt pullup resistor on the 2nd trigger input pin, and that's it. It was said that the MS2 card already has a 1k protection resistor on the JS10 input pin, so that would bring total 5 volt pulled up impedance to 1470 ohms. This would relate to roughly 2.5-3.0 milliamps of current potential to keep the CPU pin pulled up to 5 volts..I wonder if this is too little current, causing a random floating input error? Grasping at straws here! Is it known exactly how much current is needed to keep the input pin at 5 volts? Then a correct pullup can be sized accordingly, keeping the 1k input resistor on the MS2 card in the mix..

It would also be interesting to know how much current potential the actual transistors in the CAS itself can sink to ground for the low pulse. For what it's worth, the CAS is directly connected to battery ground on the CAS's ground wire, and 12 volts to the CAS's power wire is from the battery, relay switched. I've tried 2 different CAS's as well.

EDIT: I was looking at the main page description of the MS2 processor, and if i am reading it correctly, it says a 1 milliamp maximum input current?? Well, if this is the case, then the total input of 1470 ohms on the pin could be too little. Could this be the cause? Would the processor "reset" in case of too much input current? One other thing of interest, on my board, at the time of testing the code out, it was a new board, and i decided to get rid of the main tach opto, and use a 470 pullup, and 1k input resistor to the main tach input pin...i just copied the 2nd trigger the same way with the 470 pullup, but omitted the 1k since JS10 already has one on it. I looks like you would need between 4.7k-5k total resistance to keep input current to the specified 1 milliamp maximum. It's ineresting as well that the main tach opto circuit has a 4.7k 5v pullup already designed into the main opto circuit. I'm starting to think this a hardware circuit issue, rather than software.

If it ran for 2 hours, and was code related, it would have done it by then..I can get an error within maybe 30 minutes to an hour of continuous driving.

Either way, it's easy enough for me to re-connect the main tach opto, and maybe make the 5volt pullup on the 2nd trigger a 3500-4000 ohm resistor, to compliment the MS2 card on board 1k, for a total of 4.7k-5k impedance, and the max 1ma current input.

Does any of this make sense? Could "overdriving" the input pin with too much current, cause this issue?
-Matt-
1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS 420A Turbo- MS2 Extra- 2.1.0 Release
1992 Plymouth Laser RS 4g63 AWD Turbo MS2 Extra- 3.0.3s
muythaibxr
Site Admin
Posts: 8228
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 12:48 pm

Post by muythaibxr »

I'm not great at the electrical part of things (better at the code part) but it seems to me that just overdriving could cause it, but I don't think it's likely. If the processor was resetting, the "reset" indicator would increment in megatune.

I think it's more likely to be noise. I ran it for another 4 hours, and assuming I put my counter and breakpoint in the right place, I have not seen a single loss of sync. This is with the JimStim driving it in 4g63 mode at around 3000 rpms.

Ken
md95
Master MS/Extra'er
Posts: 721
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:44 pm
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Contact:

Post by md95 »

muythaibxr wrote:I'm not great at the electrical part of things (better at the code part) but it seems to me that just overdriving could cause it, but I don't think it's likely. If the processor was resetting, the "reset" indicator would increment in megatune.
That would make sense to me as well, although MT shows no resets..
muythaibxr wrote:I think it's more likely to be noise. I ran it for another 4 hours, and assuming I put my counter and breakpoint in the right place, I have not seen a single loss of sync. This is with the JimStim driving it in 4g63 mode at around 3000 rpms.

Ken
Well, at 3 straight hours of drive time i had on x-mass, i had roughly 6-10 errors. With none showing at 4 hours on the bench, i would have to say it's hardware or noise as you say. I'm not super smart on circuit design, but i know the basics anyway..It's easy enough to mod my board with the main opto,and use a higher value 2nd trigger pullup..i'll try that out tomorrow and take a drive. At this point, it's all I can think of to try. If it is noise, then maybe a higher value resistor may help, although a capacitor would be ideal..There is already one on the main tach opto circuit, so my guess, if it is noise, it would be the second trigger input on JS10 that could be the culprit..much like you mentioned before.. Worst case, the 2nd trigger should use the opto circuit like the main tach signal, but i would think any induced noise on the input to the opto, would be translated right by it to the processor input pin as well(if the opto false triggers, so would it's output).
-Matt-
1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS 420A Turbo- MS2 Extra- 2.1.0 Release
1992 Plymouth Laser RS 4g63 AWD Turbo MS2 Extra- 3.0.3s
md95
Master MS/Extra'er
Posts: 721
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:44 pm
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Contact:

Post by md95 »

Ok, i installed the main tach opto today, pulled that up to 5 volts with the 470ohm resistor as the original docs. Then, i removed the 2nd trigger 470 ohm pullup, and replaced that with a 3k ohm, for a total of 4k ohms on the 2nd trigger input to the MS2 chip. Now i'll have to get some extended drive time in to note any changes(or lack of).
-Matt-
1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS 420A Turbo- MS2 Extra- 2.1.0 Release
1992 Plymouth Laser RS 4g63 AWD Turbo MS2 Extra- 3.0.3s
md95
Master MS/Extra'er
Posts: 721
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:44 pm
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Contact:

Post by md95 »

I had some limited drive time tonight, but i had around a good 20 minutes on the highway, and well, no loss of sync to report. I can't say for 100% that the issue is fixed, as i really need to have more continuous drive time, but more times than not, it would happened within this time frame. If increasing the pullup resistance on the inputs solved this, then i would have to say it's due to limiting the input current to the MS2 chip that made the difference. James, if you see this, does this theory make any sense? Maybe if the input pin is "overdriven", it wont cause a full code reset, maybe the processor just "shuts down" that pin for a very short time frame, which would cause the code to loose it's input from the CAS, and cause a re-sync??? Only thing i can think of that makes any sense..

For my own clarification- Did i read correctly on the specs for the MS2 chip, that there is a 1 milliamp max input current per pin? Is there any official documentation for this chip, of what happens if this is exceeded? (processor reset, pin reset, ect?)
-Matt-
1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS 420A Turbo- MS2 Extra- 2.1.0 Release
1992 Plymouth Laser RS 4g63 AWD Turbo MS2 Extra- 3.0.3s
Post Reply