MS2 Beta: No inj pulses during cranking

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Philip Lochner
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MS2 Beta: No inj pulses during cranking

Post by Philip Lochner »

Was investigating injection on every tach vs alternate tachs when I discovered the absence of injector pulses during cranking.

I observed the following:
Cranking RPM = 400 / Every event

I start by switching MS/stim power on and rpm = 0
- Fuel pump comes on and goes out after 2 secs. Then I start increasing rpms.
- RPMs rise on RPM gauge, FP comes on, cranking indicator on MT comes on, Synced indicator comes on but stim I1 and I2 LEDs don’t come on and O’scope does not show fuel pulses either.
- Fuel pulses only commence above cranking rpm (400rpm).
- When I then reduce rpm, fuel pulses continue below cranking rpm.
- Taking rpms down to 0, the same as above happens.

The same happens with injections on alternate events.

msq attached.
Kind regards
Philip
'74 Jensen Interceptor 440ci (EFI'ed with MS2 and wasted spark + GM 4L60e GPIO controlled - both on Extra FW)
Philip Lochner
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Post by Philip Lochner »

FWIW:
I have noticed that if I drop rpms to below cranking rpm (400 in my case) while ASE is active, injection pulses stop.

However, if I wait until ASE has ended I can drop rpms to below cranking rpm and fuelling will continue. (The cranking indicator on MT does not come on again when rpms drop to below cranking rpm
Kind regards
Philip
'74 Jensen Interceptor 440ci (EFI'ed with MS2 and wasted spark + GM 4L60e GPIO controlled - both on Extra FW)
Philip Lochner
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Post by Philip Lochner »

Further observations...

Connected up my EDIS test bench to MS2/Extra and VOILA!! Now I reliably get injector pulses during cranking. All the above observations were made using stim.

EDIS sends a proper 50% duty cycle tach signal to MS, whereas stim sends a sharp positive going "spike" to MS. I don't understand why that should make a difference but it does.

Still, when rpms drop back to below cranking rpm, the cranking indicator does not come back on. Not a big deal I'm sure but that's how I have come to know MS2 to work.
Kind regards
Philip
'74 Jensen Interceptor 440ci (EFI'ed with MS2 and wasted spark + GM 4L60e GPIO controlled - both on Extra FW)
muythaibxr
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Post by muythaibxr »

Philip Lochner wrote: Still, when rpms drop back to below cranking rpm, the cranking indicator does not come back on. Not a big deal I'm sure but that's how I have come to know MS2 to work.
We did that on purpose. 5 seconds after you leave cranking mode, it won't go back into cranking mode until the unit is power cycled.

James originally did this in ms1/extra with a 2 second delay. I thought 2 seconds was a bit too quick, so I made it 5 seconds.

It is different from the original firmware.

Also, what kind of stim do you have? I'm using a JimStim here, and have never had a problem getting injector pulses at any rpm, cranking or not.

Ken
Philip Lochner
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Post by Philip Lochner »

More...

When I plug in stim, BUT I feed MS2 the EDIS signal from my EDIS test bench (with dinkum EDIS module), having disrupted the tach signal from stim,
I STILL DONT get cranking injections.

With ONLY 12V, GND and EDIS PIP signal going into MS2 on a DB-37 connection I made up, all is fine.

It would seem therefore that there is something about stim my MS2 does not like...

Enough for today.
Kind regards
Philip
'74 Jensen Interceptor 440ci (EFI'ed with MS2 and wasted spark + GM 4L60e GPIO controlled - both on Extra FW)
Philip Lochner
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Post by Philip Lochner »

muythaibxr wrote:Also, what kind of stim do you have? I'm using a JimStim here, and have never had a problem getting injector pulses at any rpm, cranking or not.
Using Megastim V2.2 Ken. Where can I read more on Jimstim?
Kind regards
Philip
'74 Jensen Interceptor 440ci (EFI'ed with MS2 and wasted spark + GM 4L60e GPIO controlled - both on Extra FW)
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Post by jsmcortina »

I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

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Philip Lochner
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Post by Philip Lochner »

This morning I set cranking rpm to 10

The lowest rpm I can get from Megastim is about 50 rpm, so of course MS goes straight into running mode, but immediately the Sync'ed indicator goes out and I get fuelling pulses.

This tells me that MS should be able to deliver fuelling pulses while in cranking mode even with Megastim?
Kind regards
Philip
'74 Jensen Interceptor 440ci (EFI'ed with MS2 and wasted spark + GM 4L60e GPIO controlled - both on Extra FW)
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Post by jsmcortina »

I loaded your MSQ and it works for me. At a displayed 85rpm and in cranking mode the two injector lights flash.

See http://www.youtube.com/user/jsmcortina in a bit.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

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Post by Keithg »

I get pulses during cranking, but wonder why it takes so long to sync. I can 'see' sync when the spark LEDs start flashing instead of being held hi when I am cranking the car. I have been running COP a while and am now running W/S as a test (one reason is to see if it starts any faster). I would think that W/S would sync faster, but I see no real difference. I have a 36-1 wheel and a 2nd trigger for COP. One config detail is that my 1-3-4-2 firing order is actually spark D-B-C-A. Would this make any difference? Should I swap this around so that it is A-B-C-D?

I swapped in a MS1 W/S unit and it surprised me how quickly it catches. It starts sparking and fuelling almost immediately in W/S mode and a bit longer in COP. Is there any possibility that this can be enhanced in the current MS2/E code beta? It will not let me take 'skip pulses' any lower than 3, for example.

If needed, I can perform 2 starts W/S and COP and log them. You should be able to see when it starts cranking (MAP decreases) and when it syncs and when it starts fuel. I can also log a MS1 W/S start.
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Post by jsmcortina »

36-1 + 2nd trig will typically take twice as long to sync as 36-1 only because it must wait for the cam signal before it can sync.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

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muythaibxr
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Post by muythaibxr »

syncing in general takes a bit longer in ms2/extra just because we have most of the calculations going on in the main loop, and there's some time where the main loop isn't doing anything because the data from the ISR isn't fully populated yet... and then another slight delay before the data from the main loop causes the plugs to fire.

James and I (mostly James) are going to be working on a few ways to speed this up, as we've said (repeatedly) before.

Ken
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Post by 6040solder »

Keith, I believe that if you reconfigure to not use the second trigger and run wasted spark from it like that it should be faster. could be wrong, but worth a shot :-)

If you are running wasted spark, the second trigger is pointless anyway.
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MS2 Beta: No inj pulses during cranking

Post by Keithg »

D'oh. Forgot to do that. It syncs faster than with 2nd trigger. I was just hoping that there may be some configuration that would allow for 'fastest' starts and that it may be related to what wazs noted in this thread, but I was wrong (again).

Keith

On Dec 13, 2007 4:42 PM, 6040solder wrote:
Keith, I believe that if you reconfigure to not use the second trigger and run wasted spark from it like that it should be faster. could be wrong, but worth a shot :-)

If you are running wasted spark, the second trigger is pointless anyway.

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Post by 6040solder »

muythaibxr wrote:James and I (mostly James) are going to be working on a few ways to speed this up, as we've said (repeatedly) before.
Its coming :-)
Philip Lochner
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Post by Philip Lochner »

Rather than creating a new topic, I decided to post under the same topic as I still recon there is a bit of an issue with cranking pulses because:

MS2/ExtraBeta2.0 is in my car and its running fine, except....

1) Now and then, when I start, the engine starts BUT rpmgauge shows HALF the rpms it should be and touching the gas pedal makes it die.
2) When I set cranking rpm to 180 (she cranks at about 150), she will fire and then die. Setting it to 400, she starts more reliably.

Bear in mind that tach pulses come from an EDIS-6 module and I'm using the hall circuit for tach input.

MSQ attached FWIW.
Kind regards
Philip
'74 Jensen Interceptor 440ci (EFI'ed with MS2 and wasted spark + GM 4L60e GPIO controlled - both on Extra FW)
Philip Lochner
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Post by Philip Lochner »

Mud in my face again....

Today I set afterstart tolerance from 30% to 50% and VOILA!!

She now starts best EVER - when hot.
Kind regards
Philip
'74 Jensen Interceptor 440ci (EFI'ed with MS2 and wasted spark + GM 4L60e GPIO controlled - both on Extra FW)
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Post by Keithg »

Philip Lochner wrote:Mud in my face again....

Today I set afterstart tolerance from 30% to 50% and VOILA!!

She now starts best EVER - when hot.
Where is that setting?

KeithG
Philip Lochner
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Post by Philip Lochner »

Keithg wrote:Where is that setting?
You have to activate the "Advanced" menus and then find it under "Advanced ignition options"
Kind regards
Philip
'74 Jensen Interceptor 440ci (EFI'ed with MS2 and wasted spark + GM 4L60e GPIO controlled - both on Extra FW)
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Post by md95 »

What is this "afterstart tolerance" setting for??? I can't find any info on it.
-Matt-
1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS 420A Turbo- MS2 Extra- 2.1.0 Release
1992 Plymouth Laser RS 4g63 AWD Turbo MS2 Extra- 3.0.3s
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