Low tooth count wheels - beta testers required

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jsmcortina
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Low tooth count wheels - beta testers required

Post by jsmcortina »

Over the last week I've tracked down and put in place a better solution to handle very low tooth-count wheels.

Wheels impacted:
- non missing tooth crank wheels where no. teeth = half no. cylinders
e.g. 3 crank teeth on a 6 cyl or 4 crank teeth on an 8 cyl.
- dual sync dizzy
-missing tooth crank wheel where main number = no. cylinders
e.g. 4-1 on a 4cyl
-missing tooth cam wheel where main number = 2x no. cylinders
e.g. 8-1 dizzy wheel on a 4cyl

The symptoms were mainly manifested as misfires at specific rpms

I originally wrote the improvement in MS3 and two users have given positive feedback so far. I have now ported that code over to MS2/Extra and would like some beta testers - either with the impacted wheels or any other configuration.

Send me a PM.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

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Reverant
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Re: Low tooth count wheels - beta testers required

Post by Reverant »

Would this affect the 4G63 or the Miata 99-05?
The man behind MS Labs
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richyvrlimited
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Re: Low tooth count wheels - beta testers required

Post by richyvrlimited »

What Reverant said!

If the 4G63 is a suitable candidate I'd love to test - and get rid of the irritating missfires at specific RPMS's we suffer from!
2003 MX5. Coldside MP62
-
MS3, RTC, & Knock board, Release 1.2. LC-1 Wideband.
jsmcortina
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Re: Low tooth count wheels - beta testers required

Post by jsmcortina »

Reverant wrote:Would this affect the 4G63 or the Miata 99-05?
Neither.
Both of these are treated as 8 teeth per 720 degrees and are therefore not impacted. I've just tested 4G63 on the bench with 3.1.1 and confirmed it does not have the issue. (For any scope testers out there, this situation happens when the dwell or spark edges are just about co-incident with the active edge of a trigger.)

I have both steadily stepped through fixed angles in 0.1 deg increments through the potential danger zone and used a syringe to bounce the MAP and therefore timing through this same region. No fault observed.

While 4G63 only has 4 physical teeth per 720 degrees, the code uses both edges so it is treated as 8 teeth.

However, you are welcome to try the new code regardless.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

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Greg G
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Re: Low tooth count wheels - beta testers required

Post by Greg G »

Ken said the code he sent me with the PID changes had this code as well. FWIW- my car wouldn't start when I flashed it :?

NA6 MX5/Miata

I didn't know, so this is the only log I have of it. Hope it helps.
1996 Mazda MX-5 1.6L NA6/ Mazdaspeed M45 SC/ BSP AW Intercooler/ Maruha F-cams/ 425cc RX-8 injectors/ DIYPNP

MS2/Extra test mule :)
tmh357
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Re: Low tooth count wheels - beta testers required

Post by tmh357 »

Is this issue exclusive to MS2 & MS3? A couple years back I set up a Subaru motor with a 4-1 trigger wheel using MS1/V2.2 setup and a LM1815 circuit. It performed flawlessly at all RPMs.
Joe
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Re: Low tooth count wheels - beta testers required

Post by Joe »

James,

Having some issues

V-8 MSII Crank 4x (50% duty)(Edit- Not 50 On 50 Off) 1x cam (50% duty)

Sync's OK and seems to stay synced, After ASE stops My pulse width spikes to 32ms

It's difficult to start also, composit log shows OK.

Suspect I'm synced 90 off at times, will strobe later.

I broke my foot earlier in the week so my progress has been a little slow with a cast.

After a quick snack I'll crawl under the truck to pound my mufflers closed and keep at it.

If I don't spot the issue I'll post some logs tonight and see if any thing jumps out at you.

Thanks,
Joe
78 Chev 4x4 MS3. Microsquit 4l80E (Toy Hauler/Beta test rig )
70 AAR Cuda -Hanger queen- 340 MS3 Seq- XV Level II
Joe
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Re: Low tooth count wheels - beta testers required

Post by Joe »

Verified with strobe my Ignition timing is good.

It's just plain supper rich-

I am not able to duplicate this on the Stim, but I see now my trigger on the stim is not the same as the truck.

Scope check of trigger( This is a saved picture, i didn't have my scope handy)

After a starting attemp, if I unplug the injectors It runs fine for a few seconds.
Last edited by Joe on Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
78 Chev 4x4 MS3. Microsquit 4l80E (Toy Hauler/Beta test rig )
70 AAR Cuda -Hanger queen- 340 MS3 Seq- XV Level II
Joe
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Re: Low tooth count wheels - beta testers required

Post by Joe »

Just not sure at this point, going to reload code and recheck my settings.


MSII beta code-
V3 board-
P&H board. (2- injectors)
4 channel ign board (IGN only)

I've move my cam signal a few degrees so it doesn't line up with my crank signal-

The falling edge of the crank trigger at the cam signal transition is #1 TDC

Edit- Tried a number of different MAP sample settings starting at 10, 45.
Didn't make a lot of difference.
Unable to even get 32ms pulse on the bench??

Joe-
Last edited by Joe on Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
78 Chev 4x4 MS3. Microsquit 4l80E (Toy Hauler/Beta test rig )
70 AAR Cuda -Hanger queen- 340 MS3 Seq- XV Level II
Black99rt
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Re: Low tooth count wheels - beta testers required

Post by Black99rt »

Are you using rising or falling edge for the crank? (can't check your msq at work)
1999 Dakota 5.9L R/T-
MSIIe 3.1.2 Batch Fuel/MSD single coil dizzy/Stepper idle
LC-1
Matt Cramer
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Re: Low tooth count wheels - beta testers required

Post by Matt Cramer »

tmh357 wrote:Is this issue exclusive to MS2 & MS3? A couple years back I set up a Subaru motor with a 4-1 trigger wheel using MS1/V2.2 setup and a LM1815 circuit. It performed flawlessly at all RPMs.
It's unlikely the issue would apply to MS1 as its wheel decoder has almost nothing in common with the MS2/Extra and MS3 decoding routine.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
Joe
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Re: Low tooth count wheels - beta testers required

Post by Joe »

James,

Sorted out a little hardware issue. Starts, runs good. (Using the crank/cam settings above)

Put about 35 miles on it tonight. Need to put back EAE and some other minor tweeks, but running good.

Not sure what RPM you were having an issue, but with this motor I rarely see over 4000rpm.
Never missed a beat. If there is something you would like logged let me know. I'll be putting some time
on the road this next week. I'll be cleaning up some of my wiring tomorrow and probably go for a cruise.
My hardware issue- the warmup100 log posted above is with JS5 floating. turned it off and runs like a champ.
Not sure what happened to my Baro, even more puzzled it was fine on the bench.

Nice work, v-8 4x crank, 1x cam working good. If i run into any issues after putting some time on it I'll post it here.

Thanks,

Joe
78 Chev 4x4 MS3. Microsquit 4l80E (Toy Hauler/Beta test rig )
70 AAR Cuda -Hanger queen- 340 MS3 Seq- XV Level II
jsmcortina
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Re: Low tooth count wheels - beta testers required

Post by jsmcortina »

Joe wrote:Not sure what RPM you were having an issue,
If you fancy a bit of extra work, load up 3.1.1 and compare. I have a feeling you'll easily discover the problem.

Glad to hear that the test code is working ok for you.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
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Re: Low tooth count wheels - beta testers required

Post by Joe »

~170 miles so far-
Did a few final adjustments. Runs good so far.

A few things I noticed-

Idle quality is noticably better. I run a rich Idle so I'm not sure how much is code and how much is just a hotter spark.
It's nice though-

Closed loop Idle- I've always had a few CL Idle Issues. Nothing serious. Always figured some day I would experiment to see if I could tune it out. I get the random rpm hang. Never really spent much time looking at it as it seemed somewhat random.
Not really a big deal anyway..

Seems to be gone. I noticed a default setting had changed (From memory rpmDOT??)
Was there any changes in code to closed loop Idle?? (Was running 3.1 release)

Low speed drivability just seems generally smoother.

Joe
78 Chev 4x4 MS3. Microsquit 4l80E (Toy Hauler/Beta test rig )
70 AAR Cuda -Hanger queen- 340 MS3 Seq- XV Level II
piledriver
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Re: Low tooth count wheels - beta testers required

Post by piledriver »

I'm running 6/1 generic wheel on a 4, not sure if I qualify, but I get a very intermittent sync loss at ~3K I have had zero luck tracking down.

I'm still running the 3.1-pre RC code, as it runs great otherwise, but about time to reflash anyway.

Car does 80 miles a day+
Always doing things the hard way, MS2 sequential w/ v1.01 mainboard, LS2 coils. 80 mile/day commuter status.
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Re: Low tooth count wheels - beta testers required

Post by jsmcortina »

piledriver wrote:I'm running 6/1 generic wheel on a 4, not sure if I qualify, but I get a very intermittent sync loss at ~3K I have had zero luck tracking down.
The code changes have no effect on sync or lack of.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

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piledriver
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Re: Low tooth count wheels - beta testers required

Post by piledriver »

Perhaps I misstated my issue--- I don't actually seem to be losing sync AFAICT, it looks/feels like a 1 rev misfire.
(Not even like a small burn) just enough to be annoying. It does seem to most frequently happen at cruise, ~3K.

Trying to grab trigger logs have so far been useless, looks perfect.

It does seem to cause a small discontinuity in rpmdot just before the lean spike though, so it could be something else entirely.
(The JAW WBO2 I'm still using has very little filtering on its output)
Always doing things the hard way, MS2 sequential w/ v1.01 mainboard, LS2 coils. 80 mile/day commuter status.
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Re: Low tooth count wheels - beta testers required

Post by jsmcortina »

That misfire is exactly the kind of symptoms you might get.

James
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piledriver
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Re: Low tooth count wheels - beta testers required

Post by piledriver »

jsmcortina wrote:That misfire is exactly the kind of symptoms you might get.

James

From the issue the test code is trying to fix or losing sync?
(no sync loss showing up on the gauge, OTOH if I set the trigger filters just right I can cut my power ~in half like the rev limiter is always kinda on and not lose sync either)

I work 12s/nights so I'm toast right now, apologies If the question seems like I'm dense...I am.
Always doing things the hard way, MS2 sequential w/ v1.01 mainboard, LS2 coils. 80 mile/day commuter status.
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Re: Low tooth count wheels - beta testers required

Post by jsmcortina »

The code modification addresses the misfire. There are no changes to sync.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
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