password protection PLEASE!!!!

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turbo355
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Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Post by turbo355 »

Thats what im saying add the variable to the firmware so the password is in the firmware then TS would read whats in the firmware and if your password in TS didnt match then TS wouldnt open the tune , or open specific tables of the tune.

But then it would probably be be simple enough for someone with enough patience or someone familiar with MS enough to read out the password, and get around it.
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racingmini_mtl
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Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Post by racingmini_mtl »

What I'm saying is that if it's just a password and TS that grants the access or not then it won't work. You don't even need the password because another program that doesn't require the password can be used to read the tune. Use Megatune (or something based on it) and save the msq.

There has to be code in the MS that prevents the access from any software. It can't be just data such as a password.

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W113
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Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Post by W113 »

My final $0,02s on this subject.

I feel that the entire subject of password protection on anything related to MS is not a in line with what MS is all about.

For a klutzy car owner with more curiosity than skills there are myriad possibilities to spoil an engine and then blame the tuner/installer, if they want to.
A busted radiator hose or unsuitable oil cooler circuit will b enough. Then, blame the tuner.
For people who are skilled enough to tune/build MS on engines for an income, great, keep doing it and be sure you have your business risks covered by insurance.


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tpsretard2
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Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Post by tpsretard2 »

The 3 systems i use that offer password protection is
Motec, pectel and TAG

w113 you are thinking of it from a home user/tinkerer i am thinking of it from a pro install, some of my engines that i build are sold for 10+k and that is cheep. ms is at the point where i look at it not as just a little hobey cheep ecu, but the ecu that proved that good engine management dos not have to cost 6k+ and dos not have to have the other bulshit to deal with.

for my personal cars and my friends password or not, i am megasquirt for life.
Just pointing there is an untapped market for this little ecu that could..
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Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Post by racingmini_mtl »

I don't know if those who want this are thinking of MS2/Extra or MS3 or both but for MS2 and Microsquirt based ECUs, that would require a custom serial monitor. Otherwise, with a firmware-only solution you'd be closing the front door and leaving the backdoor open. I don't know enough about the internal workings of the MS3 to say if this would be the same for MS3.

So, if this is ever done, it would have to be for tuners who also provide the ECU to their customers and they would have to get a custom version of the MS2 card or the Microsquirt or the Microsquirt module.

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Brian I
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Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Post by Brian I »

All this sounds a little too Apple-esq for my tastes, and I realy believe that it flies directly in the face of the original intent of the megasquirt to even make it possible to lock out the OWNER of the ecu from changing anything. Remember it's a OPEN SOURCE project and was never intended to be implemented where it would be separated from the knowledge of how to use it. You that wish to be able to lock the tune are wishing to turn the megasquirt into something it is not. Be mindful what you wish for, the developers could have chosen to make the MS a closed source, and probably made a lot of money marketing it to the racing/specialty market like motec and the others. Instead they have left it open source and even help all us users along. If one of you is serious enough about locking the end user out of the ability to make changes to their own tune, develop the method yourself, make the hardware yourself, then it would be all yours to lock or un-lock. there are myriad ways it could be done but should it? It is my considered oppinion that it should not.
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Rob_B
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Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Post by Rob_B »

Wouldn't it be easier to keep the connector that you use for tuning inside the MS case (not accessable from the outside) and seal the case when you are done?
Just like you do with the engine.
BenGTT wrote:When I build an engine, I protect it with special paint color on screws or drilling the screw and locking them with security lead. This avoid the end user to open the engine with no reason. If there is a problem with the engine, things are much more easy with my lawyer.
Edit: With MS being open source I would think it would be difficult to make a good protection that won't be cracked within a few weeks.
ecustom
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Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Post by ecustom »

chango de naranjito wrote:
James wrote:Surely one tune is very unlikely to work on another engine due to all the variables? It'll be close but if the person using the "stolen" MSQ really wants the best out of the engine they are going to have to go get it tuned themselves anyway?

I still don't understand why you cannot share a few tables that you have paid a tuner to create :)

The way I see it — you cannot make the MSQ without the customer — if you were selling MSQs created out of thin air or by some clever piece of software you wrote there might be something you could steal — then it would be intellectual property.
I agree the tune dont work the same but at least it will start and run,and in the particular cases that happen to me the engine setups are identical and I dont fell happy when this happen,If it can not be done well, I just have to get used to it...
As a tuner myself I need to ask this question. What's the difference in tuning a megasquirt or a motec. It's still a tune for that vehicle. You can share motec info just like squirt info. No matter who tunes them. If you want to protect your tunes then you need to charge enough for the tune. If you are that good of a tuner people will pay. That's the only protection you have. They can pay to have it done right or struggle and figure it out themselves like we all have. And 9 times out of 10 if they pay good money for a tune they're not going to give it up so easily.
tpsretard2
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Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Post by tpsretard2 »

ecustom, it is not about the map data..

it is about the security of the engine for warranty purposes.
well for me at least
Benkku
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Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Post by Benkku »

James wrote:Surely one tune is very unlikely to work on another engine due to all the variables? It'll be close but if the person using the "stolen" MSQ really wants the best out of the engine they are going to have to go get it tuned themselves anyway?

I still don't understand why you cannot share a few tables that you have paid a tuner to create :)
That is very true. Engines and setups are always bit different, even if engineered from exactly same components. Basicly competent dyno operator is able to create ignition advance map quite short time - when certain engine parameters are known - or directly 'spot on' if dyno has equipped with cylinder pressure measurement system. Fuelling is always childs play.

I personally have witnessed bad tunes from 'locked down ECU's' - mapped by 'big names' in our country - long coil charging times which burns coils in high revs at special stages, engines do not start when temps are below zero, overrich fuelling etc.

Personally i am against locked down features and ecu's. Open honest game it should be. Write your terms down, and take customer signature to it, make some fingerprints to data and thats it.
Benkku
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Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Post by Benkku »

tpsretard2 wrote:ecustom, it is not about the map data..

it is about the security of the engine for warranty purposes.
well for me at least
What kind of 'warranty' you provide for the competition engine? Haven't yet seen any single engine builder, providing warranty for low budget highly stressed rally or track engines. Completely different matter, are 'big boys' expensive competition engines, but those usually are equipped with 'proper competition ecu's'.
HidRo
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Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Post by HidRo »

As I'm new to this, what would differ a "proper competition ECU" to a MegaSquirt?
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Black99rt
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Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Post by Black99rt »

Benkku wrote:
tpsretard2 wrote:ecustom, it is not about the map data..

it is about the security of the engine for warranty purposes.
well for me at least
What kind of 'warranty' you provide for the competition engine? Haven't yet seen any single engine builder, providing warranty for low budget highly stressed rally or track engines. Completely different matter, are 'big boys' expensive competition engines, but those usually are equipped with 'proper competition ecu's'.

This has been in the back of my mind for this whole discussion. Since when to engine builders offer any sort of official warrenty on engines destined for racing use?
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tpsretard2
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Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Post by tpsretard2 »

you are dealing with the wrong builders if they do not offer any warranty.

but then again a budget engine from me starts at $10,000 + the core + the parts
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Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Post by dontz125 »

*scratching head* Well, when you're dealing with purpose-built from-the-factory race bikes (Yamaha TZ, Honda RS and NS), the entire vehicle is 'without warranty'. "This model is sold AS-IS, WITHOUT ANY WARRANTIES EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED REGARDLESS OF THE INTENDED USE." Straight from the 4JT4 Owner's / Service manual for a $13,000 '96 TZ125...

Every racing part I've ever seen is 'without warranty'.
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Black99rt
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Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Post by Black99rt »

It's one thing if a shop helps you "make it right" by exercising their connections in your favor and helping with the RMA process on specific parts, it's quite another thing for a shop to offer a full warrenty on a race piece.

If your customers are paying for that sort of warrenty, you might just want to supply them with a standalone that has provisions for this already. I don't think its in the spirit of this project, but it's not my decision to make.
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ol boy
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Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Post by ol boy »

How hard would it be to disable the serial port hardware? The only way to get coms would be to undo the hardware mod. Remove power or ground from RS232 chip. Password... :roll: child's play!

This may only work for those owners who only drive and don't wrench much.
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jasaircraft
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Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Post by jasaircraft »

All the high end ecus have password protection, not only for warranty issues which is extremely important, but because the tuner who has bought a $80kdyno, $ks in other tools, a workshop, time, people, etc etc and has also bought a lot of say 30 ecus investing in your brand (whatever brand it is), is into the game of selling you performance, and also becomes a big client for the ecu developers, which is all fair, its a way of living for many people in the industry.
Now if that performance gains (know how) he has managed to achieve with so much investement is just copied by some keyboard warrior... well it is just not fair, even worse if he copies it and installs it in a bad ecu or a different setup engine ( because he doesnt realize the differences) and something goes wrong... and the engine is damaged, what would you think he will say " oh no that tuners map is bull****" with all that said then... anyone agree in the need of password protection?

When you go and buy a Coke, you buy a relief for your thirst, for taste etc. You dont buy CocaCola's formula to make your own Coke! Agree?
It is called intelectual property and is protected by law in most countries. Now I agree the spirit in the beginning was of a sharing info and it was all of rainbow colors, but this ecus are now coming to a level that changes that point of view, specially because more tuners (people that live from this) start buying more and more ecus.

Lastly, the best way is to put a veery small swictch on the board that allows comm lines.
jasaircraft
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Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Post by jasaircraft »

james what pins from U6 should with intercept to put a switch to enable and disable comms?
transaxel
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Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Post by transaxel »

jasaircraft wrote:james what pins from U6 should with intercept to put a switch to enable and disable comms?
I have figured out my own solution to protect my MS Setup´s from copying. In place of U6 i´ve soldered a socket and replaced the RS232 Chip with an
Bluetooth Module. The Module can be configured with a specific PIN Code. So you can only connect if you know the PIN. It´s easy to go back to RS232
Connection - you must only put the Chip into the socket and disable BT. If the Case is sealed i find it´s a cheap and easy solution.
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