password protection PLEASE!!!!

This is a forum for discussing the development and testing of alpha MS2/Extra code. Documentation
(Runs on MS2 and Microsquirt)

Moderators: jsmcortina, muythaibxr

Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Postby juansh2385 » Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:55 am

chango yo se que puerto rico hay mucho ganzo que se quiere guillar de listo pero creo que se te esta pasando la mano...... Conosco casi todos los nombres de los buenos tuners en pr de mega pero apodo chango nunca lo habia escuchado,.... usas otro nombre por aca? btw tengo la solucion para lo que quieres pero tienes que convencerme de que realmente lo que haces es algo justo para tus clientes.
juansh2385
Master MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 474
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:28 pm

Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Postby kjones6039 » Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:25 am

kjones6039 wrote:There any number of ways, available in Windows and other programs, to protect your files. You can even encrypt them if you like. IMO, a lot easier than making it part of the software.

Just my thoughts of course...........

Ken


I obviously missed the point! :oops:

I clearly see the need that some of you have in this regard.

Ken
1979 Corvette - 383 CID SBC w/ Holley Pro-Jection 900 CFM TBI, 4-85 lb lo-z injectors & Walbro 255 pump
MS2 v3 w/ms2extra 3.3.1 Release
36-1, Delphi LS2/7 coils in wasted spark, driven by v2.0 logic board from JBPerformance
Spartan Lambda Sensor from 14point7
User avatar
kjones6039
Super MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 1224
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:02 pm
Location: Eureka, NV USA

Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Postby pmbrunelle » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:28 am

Anyone that pays a contractor for a tune with passwords/interlocks/whatever to prevent access is getting shafted.
pmbrunelle
Helpful MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 75
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:21 pm
Location: Montréal, Canada

Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Postby W113 » Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:35 am

Hi to all,

I have been around Megasquirt for quite a while now. The whole idea was open solutions and interaction. In the early days one of the moderators on the first forum answered a request for password protection about like this ( approx) " and if you can manage to implement that in Megasquirt we will spend all our best efforts and crack it "
And that is still my personal opinion on Megasquirt.
It really needs to be open source, also on the hardware. This is how it arrived at todays pretty advanced state, development by many individuals being rolled and refined over several years. The persons at the heart of it has hopefully got som money out of the PCBs and licensed vendors to make a reasonable income, they are certainly worth all of that and more.

And now, somebody wants to base his little efforts on all of the preceeding manyears of work by a dedicated group and then lock " his " results up!

Come on guys, this is not the way to go with Megasquirt.

W113
If not understood , it will not work
W113
Master MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 472
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:35 am
Location: Sweden

Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Postby BenGTT » Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:48 pm

I am one of these who want this option. Why? Because of the risk I encounter when I build an engine without protection on the tune. When I build an engine, I protect it with special paint color on screws or drilling the screw and locking them with security lead. This avoid the end user to open the engine with no reason. If there is a problem with the engine, things are much more easy with my lawyer.
I don't want to pay an engine if the customer did bad things with the engine!
This is the same with the tune.There is no way for me I can garanty an engine without protecting myself. If the customer want to have access to the tune, I never refuse to give him, but he has to sign some paper. Most of my customer don't care if it is a motec or a megasquirt. They just want a good engine well tuned. -Do you understand?

At least, I m not really asking a full locked tune, but at least a read only mode protected by password.

The copy issue is more a problem when I do chiptuning on oem ecu's than megasquirt msq related.
BenGTT
Master MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 387
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 4:46 am
Location: France

Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Postby HidRo » Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:00 pm

Well, you can "break" the connection to one pin on the DB15 connector on the ECU, so no one other than you can connect to it (because you would correct this before attempting to connect, of course).
Image
Golf II + 1.8T 20V + MSII V3.0 http://eight620vt.tk/
HidRo
Super MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:56 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Postby tpsretard2 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:28 am

This last year i have install some 15 odd ecus, combo between pectel and motec.
Like BenGTT they do not care what it is, once it is well tuned and works.

i do not use megasquirt on customer cars because it cant be locked, if something goes wrong in the warranty period there can be no question weather or not the computer connected to the ecu. Until ms supports this option it will be over looked but a lot of people.

Megasquirt has matured passed the initial thoughts of it, it is now a viable option for 98% of installs, attracting attention from installers not just hobby people with their own cars.
tpsretard2
Master MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 548
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:59 am

Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Postby HidRo » Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:18 am

So, imagine this...
I asked you to map my car, because I don't know how.
After 1 year, I develop some skillzzzzz by learning, and discussing with friends.
I would like to change my hardware (turbo, injectors, what not).
What can I do? I can't take the initial map you have done on my ECU, with my money, and start to change it because it's locked?
So I'll have to pay for something that I will never own, and cannot change to my willing?
Image
Golf II + 1.8T 20V + MSII V3.0 http://eight620vt.tk/
HidRo
Super MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:56 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Postby racingmini_mtl » Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:29 am

HidRo wrote:What can I do? I can't take the initial map you have done on my ECU, with my money, and start to change it because it's locked?
So I'll have to pay for something that I will never own, and cannot change to my willing?

Sign a waiver saying it's no longer his tune and his responsibility and he then unlocks the map. Or at least that should be how it goes.

Jean
jbperf.com Main site . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . jbperf.com Forum
Image
racingmini_mtl
Super MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 6462
Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 6:51 am
Location: Quebec, Canada

Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Postby James » Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:59 am

For those worried about warranties — the easiest way would be for some kind of checksum so that you can find out if the tune has been changed?

That way the customer can do what he wants, if he wants — and you'll know about it.
Triumph 2000 Mk1 — 2 litre straight 6 — MS3+MS3X, 36-1, wasted spark — Install Details
Triumph Spitfire Mk3 — clockwork
Twitter
James
Experienced MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 251
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:04 pm
Location: London, England

Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Postby BenGTT » Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:09 am

Jean is completly right. You can even have access directly out of the shop with that way.
And same point of view as tpsretard2 !

On MS3, I even use the SD logger as a security feature. If the customer broke the engine by missing a gear or doing a 4 to 3 instead of a 4 to 5, I'll see it ! I am talking about race engine.
BenGTT
Master MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 387
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 4:46 am
Location: France

Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Postby Breastfed » Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:30 am

I too can see the need for this .... so why not write your own code or pay for it to be implemented so that some royalty $$ goes to those that deserve it.

From its infancy to what it is today is because of the "open source project", we've all benefited from the dynamic momentum and the collective development in this community, and many thanks to Bruce & Al for kicking it off. Password protection does not feel like it has very much of that "MS spirit" to it that we all love ! ... so what was it about MS that attracted us all to it in the first place ??

I'm sure Bruce and Al may have thought about this at times as some folk have taken the code and schematics and rolled there own little deal with intent for financial gain and still looked for support ... fair suck of the sav boy's !!

Perhaps if Bruce, Al, James, Phil, Eric and Jean and all the others not mentioned who have contributed... now if they had not shared any of their efforts with the code where would it all be at ?

The whole MS world revolves around sharing !!

Breastfed :)
Breastfed
Helpful MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 2:47 am

Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Postby HidRo » Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:50 am

racingmini_mtl wrote:
HidRo wrote:What can I do? I can't take the initial map you have done on my ECU, with my money, and start to change it because it's locked?
So I'll have to pay for something that I will never own, and cannot change to my willing?

Sign a waiver saying it's no longer his tune and his responsibility and he then unlocks the map. Or at least that should be how it goes.

Jean


You are right. But what I do believe (and if I'm wrong, please correct me) the users that want password protection really want is to not make the tune accessible to others, so they can't forward the tune to other guys, etc and not ONLY the risk of the user changing the tune and wreck the engine.
Image
Golf II + 1.8T 20V + MSII V3.0 http://eight620vt.tk/
HidRo
Super MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:56 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Postby tpsretard2 » Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:21 am

the password can be removed easy by flashing the firmware.
you just will not beable to back up the map.

then if something goes wrong and the person comes back to you you will know it is not your map as there is no password.

It is one argument i will not back down from, no password, no install.. simple. it is a shame though as it is a grate option and a lot more people would have it installed.
I do not see how it would take away from the diy community, the people that are looking for a system will still be there, and pro builders and tuners will start to use it also.

this will only lead to more users and more sales.
tpsretard2
Master MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 548
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:59 am

Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Postby jsmcortina » Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:29 am

What other systems do offer this user lockout?

James
I can supply, repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK.

My Success story: viewtopic.php?f=104&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
jsmcortina
Site Admin
 
Posts: 27901
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 1:34 am
Location: Birmingham, UK

Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Postby Reverant » Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:09 pm

There are several different schemes out there.

Some ECUs completely lock you out with a single password.
Other ECUs allow a read-only mode without a password, but no changes can be made.
Others don't allow you to connect without a password, then a password for read-only and a different for read/write.
Some ECUs allow you to connect to a "virtual dash" but don't allow you to tune without a matching "tune" file (ie something like an .msq) - ie the TEC3R
Finally, another ECU I can think of allows you to lock certain parts of the configuration, so novices can't change important settings by mistake and damage their engine (think spark output, boost limit, etc).

Dimitris
2002 Mazda Miata 1.8 6sp - Microsquirt module 3.3.2b3 or MS3 1.2.3, sequential injection, wasted spark - GM 1 bar MAP sensor - InCar PC
Telemetry Chain: LM-1 - 4xLC-1 - 4xEGT and so much more.
User avatar
Reverant
Master MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 663
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 12:39 am
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Postby BenGTT » Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:15 pm

The most common I use when I have to is Sybele Challenger 4/4+ and Commander44 ecu's from Skynam.
Sometime I may also use old Sodemo Ev11 or Ev10 ecu's. They have lockout protection but you also have to pay a license to use the ecu.

http://www.skynam.com

http://www.sodemo.com
BenGTT
Master MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 387
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 4:46 am
Location: France

Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Postby racingmini_mtl » Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:27 pm

One problem with implementing any password protection, at least on the MS2, is that the CPU is not configured for protecting the memory but to easily allow firmware upgrades. So anything that is implemented could be relatively easily cracked or bypassed.

Jean
jbperf.com Main site . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . jbperf.com Forum
Image
racingmini_mtl
Super MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 6462
Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 6:51 am
Location: Quebec, Canada

Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Postby turbo355 » Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:45 pm

Would it work if you added a simple password variable to the firmware (say a 8 digit number) then TS would look for this number if it was set to all 0's then there is no restriction's,else it would restrict or give only limited access to tables, TS would have to be the one to lock you out if the password in the controller dosent match the password you put in TS?

This would be great for tunners and if you didnt want password protection it could be changed easily by flashing to a older firmware, i could see how this would be very nice for tunners or customers who have spent a ton on tunning only to have someone to steal your tune, or liability issues with customers who jack the tune up and possibly mess their motors up then come back on you.
2000 Suzuki Hayabusa turbo MS3 beta testing Plug and Play standalone


http://interfacepnp.webs.com/
http://www.youtube.com/Busams
Image
User avatar
turbo355
Master MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 816
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:32 pm

Re: password protection PLEASE!!!!

Postby racingmini_mtl » Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:01 pm

That would work if the only thing that could connect to an MS were TS. But anyone wanting to bypass this could write a small program to read the tune using the information in the ini. The serial protocol is there and the source code for the firmware is public for anything else that needs to be known.

So any protection can't be done completely externally but has to have some code in the firmware.

Jean
jbperf.com Main site . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . jbperf.com Forum
Image
racingmini_mtl
Super MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 6462
Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 6:51 am
Location: Quebec, Canada

PreviousNext

Return to MS2/Extra Development

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest