[FW MOD] ms2extra pre3.3alpha5 gslender v2.7

[gslender]

1)- When the motor is in cut-off condition, strangely the Idle Closed Loop control is being triggered, even with the PulseWidth = 0 ( I imagine that there is no situation that would require this). My RPM cut-off trigger is 1600 RPM. Imagine that the motor is in cut-off condition and the RPM is in 2000. At this situation, the IAC is being closed to its minimum position - the code is trying to correct the RPM without success (of course ). If at this point I press the clutch, the motor dies (sorry, I don’t know if this is the correct English word). Analising the logs, I noticed that at exactly this point, the IAC is being opened to correct the RPM, but there is not enough time for that.

I'm not sure what you are explaining here - can you be more specific about the correct names of the settings you've set and what is going on?

2)- The motor load condition in Idle increases about 10~15 KPA when I turn on the AC. If I increase the Idle Closed Loop Load trigger condition by this same amount, the problem described above is solved, BUT then when the AC is turned off, then the load trigger is almost never reached and the closed loop algorythim is not triggered, locking the RPM in a higher situation (around 2000 RPM).

Again, not 100% sure I know what you are talking about - are you saying the PID lockout max decel load% isn't high enough? I can't see how in decel with AC it would be impacted? But please confirm if that is what you are talking about.

G

[piledriver]

Sometimes posting a short log showing the issue and your msq greatly speeds things up.
(OK, it's the ONLY way to get any help, and is proper form here )

[gslender]

v2.8 of the mod is out replacing this version >> http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 91&t=46616

[nismoautoxr]

Hey GS...I loaded 2.7 on my sons MR2 a couple weeks ago and have been unable to locate adaptive VE anywhere on tuner studio . What am I doing wrong? Im on TS version 2.05d

[Ricardo_Penteado]

I'm not sure what you are explaining here - can you be more specific about the correct names of the settings you've set and what is going on?

G,

Take a look at the picture, it indicates exactly the point when I pressed the clutch while the motor was in cut-off condition:



At the indicated point, you can notice that the PW = 0, and even at this situation the CL_IDLE_TARG_RPM is 900. The Idle Closed Loop Control is engaged at this point ( I notice this looking at TS indication field).

Below there are the files:

MS2_150T_PnP_Motronic_ME3_8.msq

2012-08-25_11.32.14.zip

are you saying the PID lockout max decel load% isn't high enough?

Yes, exactly, thanks for making things easier for me
If I increase the PID lockout max decel load% in the same amount of the variation noticed when I turn on the AC, the problem described above doesn't happen.

If you need more detailed information, just tell me what you want, ok?

[nismoautoxr]

Hey GS...I loaded 2.7 on my sons MR2 a couple weeks ago and have been unable to locate adaptive VE anywhere on tuner studio . What am I doing wrong? Im on TS version 2.05d

Any suggestions??

[gslender]

Hey GS...I loaded 2.7 on my sons MR2 a couple weeks ago and have been unable to locate adaptive VE anywhere on tuner studio . What am I doing wrong? Im on TS version 2.05d

Any suggestions??

Under Startup/idle at the very bottom of the menu.

G

[nismoautoxr]

nope not there. I installed the ini with you firmware but none of the options are there.

[gslender]

I'm not sure what you are explaining here - can you be more specific about the correct names of the settings you've set and what is going on?

G,

Take a look at the picture, it indicates exactly the point when I pressed the clutch while the motor was in cut-off condition:

At the indicated point, you can notice that the PW = 0, and even at this situation the CL_IDLE_TARG_RPM is 900. The Idle Closed Loop Control is engaged at this point ( I notice this looking at TS indication field).

Below there are the files:

MS2_150T_PnP_Motronic_ME3_8.msq

2012-08-25_11.32.14.zip

are you saying the PID lockout max decel load% isn't high enough?

Yes, exactly, thanks for making things easier for me
If I increase the PID lockout max decel load% in the same amount of the variation noticed when I turn on the AC, the problem described above doesn't happen.

If you need more detailed information, just tell me what you want, ok?

Overall you have tuning issues with idle that are not related to the code. You need to get the engine to cope with that condition without needing the idle valve to control the idle. There should be a idle stop screw or some kind of minimum air flow that that keeps the engine from stalling regardless of the idle control valve. You are expecting the idle valve to do too much - it is supposed to be supplementary airflow to idle, not the entire engine load.

G

[gslender]

nope not there. I installed the ini with you firmware but none of the options are there.

Sorry. I thought I was responding to a v2.8 firmware question but you are still on v2.7 - the menu is under the Extended menu area where Idle Advance menus is, at the bottom.

G

[nismoautoxr]

I found the problem. I somehow didnt get teh correct INI in there . Redid it now and its all good plus I went ahead and loaded 2.8 as well . Thanks for all your work.

[Ricardo_Penteado]

Overall you have tuning issues with idle that are not related to the code. You need to get the engine to cope with that condition without needing the idle valve to control the idle. There should be a idle stop screw or some kind of minimum air flow that that keeps the engine from stalling regardless of the idle control valve. You are expecting the idle valve to do too much - it is supposed to be supplementary airflow to idle, not the entire engine load.

G,

Perhaps you are not familiar with Bosch Motronic ME 3.8.3 - the original ECU of my 2002 Audi A3 1.8 20V T, but it works a little bit different than the other sistems, regarding to the Idle Control.







The Idle Actuator acts directly on the throttle stop, there is no mechanical stop screw regulating the mininum air flow; there is also no bypass valve on the throttle.
On this system, the minimum position of the throttle is controlled by the ECU...

[m3ltd0wn]

here you have the pinouts for that kind of TB, i think pin 2 goes to FIDLE (you'll need to have TIP122 mod done to the board), on other sites i've read that this kind of TB has a stepper motor inside.

bXA5IHRiLmpwZw.jpg

Pin 1 Idle Stabilizer +12v
Pin 2 Idle Stabilizer -ve
Pin 3 ?????
Pin 4 Negative TPS
Pin 5 Signal TPS
Pin 7 Positive TPS
Pin 8 ?????

hope it helps

[phoenix3d]

Hi Guys!....

Yep.. That throttle body is what We here refer to as an MP9 throttle body.. As it came from the MP9 Bosch Management system...

The Idle control is done via a PWM signal sent to the Motor inside the Casing in the side of the TB....

2 Wire are for the PWM , 3 Wires for the TPS (Well actually 5 but we use only 3 as the other 2 are for closed throttle switch)

We have got some of these working.. but so far not too successfully.... The Size of the throttle makes getting the settings Dead on very difficult, (BTW we are referring to MS1 setups here... not had a chance to play with out MS2 or MS3 on one of these yet...

Got some more info if you need..?

Cheers!!!!

[m3ltd0wn]

so pin 3 and pin 8 are for closed throttle switch ?
because i want to correct the above pinouts so people will know about it.

i do prefer to use older TB that have only a TPS, and separate ISV(2 pins).

[vlopsahl]

OEM wiring:
1: IAC +
2: IAC -
3: Idle switch (ground if oem wiring, 5v+ if typical wiring with not inverted TPS)
4: 5v + (ground if you want normal TPS output)
5: TPS 1
7: ground (5v+ if you want normal TPS output)
8: TPS 2 (idle TPS)

Vegard

[colossusuk]

Just to chime in here, I run the same engine as yourself VW 1.8t 20v and have the same throttle body as you.

I never managed to get this to work with either IAC or PWM fidle settings. The only thing I could make it do was to open the throttle the maximum it could, which was like I think 20% open for idle, and that would make the car rev to about 2.5-3k rpm. It was like it was either closed or fully open, nothing inbetween. I tried using Jperfs PWM board to up the htz but didnt make any difference. The only thing I can think of is that it might use a current based pwm control like some other types of VW idle valves from the G60 era?

But anyhow the way I have it setup now, is to manually open the throttle about 1cm or 1.5 for the engine to fire up. Some people use a screw/drill a hole but I use a bit of rubber and a cable tie to hold it in position which keeps it open

I plan to use the adaptive idle/spark setting in GSlenders firmware conbined with the slightly open throttle, but I havent got around to playing with that yet as the car's been off the road for a while.

If anyone had managed to get this type of TB working with the MS idle control it would be good to hear from you!

Cheers,

James.

[Ricardo_Penteado]

We did managed to get this type of TBI working, but we had to develop a Eletronic Throttle Control. It is basically the same hardware used on the throttle models without cable.
The MS controller comunication with this hardware is made through the IDLE PWM output.

[m3ltd0wn]

can you post some settings on what frequency the tb works on keeping the idle?
i always ditch this type of TB and use the older style from the 2E engines that have only a throttle position sensor. the mounting is the same.

[piubrazil]

This type of throttle body will not work just applying a PWM in it's DC Motor input. The mechanism this throttle body uses is a servo-controlled stoping point to the throttle plate. Just it. This is why it have 2 potentiometers. The first one is a regular TPS wich give a inverted 5-0V proportional to trhottle position. The second one is just for the positioning of the stoping point of the plate, thus idle control. If you want to control this type of body, you must have a circuit to take the PWM signal from the FIdle output of MS, convert it to a 0-5V and compare with this second TPS signal and feed the DC motor with a PWM until the signal from the second potenciometer match with the Fidle converted 0-5V. The motor should be PWM feed through a H-bridge power output, to get positive and negative voltage swing, once the resting point of the throttle plate is a bit opened.

Using this type of interface, the Idle control becomes an ordinary PWM controlled valve, being transparent to the user in the PWM Idle control menu from MS.

This is the circuit we're using in the Ricardo_Penteado 1.8T 20V:


You can see in the left of the board the circuit to control the servo-idle throttle body.