Future MSII hardware kits/cases

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Flaming_Crossbow
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Future MSII hardware kits/cases

Post by Flaming_Crossbow »

Hi guy's i'm almost done with making preparations for my hobbyist NA motorcycle setup so i came to the point of picking an actual MS module. So far i am amazed by the options and level of firmware and software development but the hardware seems aged and a little disappointing. MSIII offers a lot of options i will never use so i am considering an MSII prebuilt but that thing is the size of a half shoebox. I don't think it will fit on top of my motorcycle's airbox underneath the fuel tank at all. I have been googling and wikipediaing around a bit and it seems that the hardware development has come to a stand still and the kits are all from the 2005-2010 era with minor updates. The MSII kit still comes with a 37 pin D-sub connector (Lol wAt?!) and the microsquirt does not have Bluetooth. Is it hard or expensive to reduce the current designs footprint and put it in a modern casing? Even some unlicensed kits seem to advance further than the MS kits, stealing away MS potential. Are there any full feature small size waterproof MSII or Microsquirt kits with Japanese automotive or german motorsport connectors, sequential 4cyl injection, bluetooth, led etc etc options available? The Microsquirt module also seems to be a nice option but that won't be very cost effective with a $270 board price with wiring, bluetooth, igniters, slim case and automotive connectors excluded and potential risky for amateur assembly.
DaveEFI
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Re: Future MSII hardware kits/cases

Post by DaveEFI »

MS is really designed for cars etc where space isn't really a problem. MicroSquirt is for where space is at a premium. Both are universal, so have to be adapted to each individual application. So will have some facilities you may not need - and may have to be expanded for others.

If you want something custom made for your own individual application, it will have to be custom made. :D

Many criticise the DB series of connectors. It is an industry standard connector and is made by the million and is readily available. Try buying a connector made a few years ago for a maker's ECU.
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David's Performance
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Re: Future MSII hardware kits/cases

Post by David's Performance »

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dontz125
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Re: Future MSII hardware kits/cases

Post by dontz125 »

You've got quite a spec list, and it'll probably be a pretty good installation, but you're kidding yourself if you think you're going to get 4-cyl sequential injection, bluetooth, and German OEM connectors for the price of a cased Microsquirt. Jean Belanger of jbperf put together a glorious 4 cyl sequential injection + cop plus plus plus board a few years ago, based on a Microsquirt Module in a rugged Cinch IP67 ME case with a 48-pin header, and it was pushing $600 back then. No harness, either; it came with a mating set of empty connector shells and a bag of crimp terminals.

After back-burnering it for a while, I'm back at the 'scratching head and pondering' stage for something better than the base Microsquirt, but less involved than Jean's product, and it will still be around $500 without a harness.


The DB connector question has been discussed here a few times. They are acceptable for use in aerospace installations, so the basic design certainly isn't crap even if the cheap ones are sometimes poorly made. You can get good quality DB connectors that are IP67 rated, fully-waterproof to the point of submersion.
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DaveEFI
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Re: Future MSII hardware kits/cases

Post by DaveEFI »

It comes down to production numbers at the end of the day. A basic MS is such good value because it is made in large numbers. Smaller numbers always means a higher price.

Most vehicles made in the last 20 years or so have injection systems which MS probably can't beat. So its applications are more likely for a dwindling number of older ones, or for the even more limited racing use.
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Matt Cramer
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Re: Future MSII hardware kits/cases

Post by Matt Cramer »

Here's my take on some of the things discussed.

If integrated Bluetooth comes along, it's probably going to be at the high end of the price scale. At the low end, there's cheap RS232 to Bluetooth modules that have been made in the zillions and sell for around $10; it's hard to compete with those.

First, there's already an MS2 based DIY kit with sequential injection and Japanese or German OEM connectors - that would be the DIYPNP. The features it doesn't have are a compact form factor (it was aimed at cars) and Bluetooth. Could such a kit be shrunk? If we were willing to trade away its ability to adapt to OEM harnesses and used a smaller connector, it could probably shrink down to something around 4" x 4" square - but that puts it at just a little smaller than an MS2 V3.0. Not sure it's worth it. And a very small kit with through hole components would be very tricky.

D-subs are tougher than people give them credit for. I've seen hydraulic turret punch presses that could shake the entire building they're installed in - and the controller used a lot of D-subs for their internal connection. And there's a lot of existing harnesses, Stimulator test boards, and the like based on the D-subs. So it is likely that if a next generation of "core" main boards comes along, it would retain the existing size and pinout for backward compatibility - probably with a populated DB15 for extra outputs, and a lot of the new circuits developed around the Extra code already installed. I've seen some preliminary work on such a concept from B&G, but I'm not sure how close it is to release.

That said, there are still some gaps I can see in the product line. We spent a lot of last year at DIYAutoTune working on pushing the MS3 design even further with the MS3Pro Ultimate, and it's likely much of this year's focus for us will be in getting more MSPNPs out the door. But there may be room for some other things in the lineup. Developing the solder it yourself kits has typically been B&G's domain.
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piledriver
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Re: Future MSII hardware kits/cases

Post by piledriver »

RE:Slagging on DB connectors

The US military (pretty much everybodies military, actually) now pretty much universally uses a spray or brush on cleaner/lubricant/preservative on all electronic connections these days, even the ~awesome quality milspec components in dry storage. This is NOT anything like WD-40, or "electrical contact cleaner and lubricant" as most have seen used.
This may very well extend to card edge connectors in avionics boxen.(They usually suck the worst)

Here's a good read on the history... and it apparently doesn't matter much if you live in the desert.
Its the vibration/fretting that kills in use.
The lubricant action alone can extend the life and quality of the connection ridiculously.
It can even fix already ~crappy connections. Really.

Sandia Labs has a related 250+ page report that beats this to death, repeatedly, but here's a short entertaining version...
http://www.corrosion-protect.com/resour ... Dobson.pdf

At ~$70-80 for a 16 oz spray can, I think I'll just try Break-Free CLP in the pump 16oz size for $15.
Same idea, chemically ~identical AFAICT, sadly they didn't test it for that use.
I'm betting it works just fine.
I rather suspect (cough...) it has been successfully used for the exact purpose on avionics long before mil-l-8177a existed, and is likely where the whole idea came from...

The point is: I bet (good quality) DB connectors would be ~as reliable as most anything else with that treatment.
I would strongly suggest it for ANY electrical connector, even sealed ones.
Always doing things the hard way, MS2 sequential w/ v1.01 mainboard, LS2 coils. 80 mile/day commuter status.
dontz125
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Re: Future MSII hardware kits/cases

Post by dontz125 »

The only thing I'd be concerned about is getting enough Teflon flakes in there to interfere with the contacts. We always had to shake the bottles of CLP like human paint mixers before using the stuff; I'd wager the electronics version has a lot fewer suspended solids.
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piledriver
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Re: Future MSII hardware kits/cases

Post by piledriver »

dontz125 wrote:The only thing I'd be concerned about is getting enough Teflon flakes in there to interfere with the contacts. We always had to shake the bottles of CLP like human paint mixers before using the stuff; I'd wager the electronics version has a lot fewer suspended solids.

Possibly, they actually added fine teflon to later versions of the milspec electronics stuff when they switched over from freon solvent, worked even better.
Possibly finer grade sub-micron sized powder. (in the 240+ page Sandia report, although IIRC they didn't mention the size)

Its too bad MoS2 or WS2 aren't usable in the app. (might work if all low voltage--- both are semiconductors), maybe could be burnished onto the metal and loose stuff flushed out... might also prevent metal to metal contact which would be bad and induce noise, although both are fully displacable. Would be interesting test.
Always doing things the hard way, MS2 sequential w/ v1.01 mainboard, LS2 coils. 80 mile/day commuter status.
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