"MS4" wishlist thread

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dontz125
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread

Post by dontz125 »

With the introduction of jbperf's 'logic' 4-channel driver board, the MS3X is capable of 12+12 sequential with very little needed in the way of DIY mods.
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Marek
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread

Post by Marek »

Dear Don,

Just because something is capable of running 12 cylinders doesn't mean it is well suited to it:- I am running MS3 for a dual fuel sequential v12 and would like to trim the fuelling and get acceleration enrichment sorted, but the trim for petrol and lpg are going to be totally separate, as are the required acceleration enrichments as the injectors are totally different. Additionally, a couple of years ago when there was snow on the ground, I noticed that I needed a second air valve as not enough air got in on a very cold start. At higher rpm, Jaguar used a second fuel pump on their 6litre cars to cut in above 2500rpm. There are lots of associated hardware "consequences" to adding cylinders.

kind regards
Marek
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread

Post by Chiburbian »

I read the first three pages and skimmed the last two so forgive me if I am saying something that has already been said.

I am VERY new to the MS game so I am coming at this from a new user perspective.

* rather than have each injector be high-z or low-z in software (if that is too difficult) how about having the traces already on the board for either and just an instruction of "If using low-z injectors, place resistor R(x) and appropriate_chipx on the board in the proper locations. If using High-z injectors, solder a jumper between point "n" and "m." each output should have some easy place to add a pull-up or other chip/hardware without the use of too much spaghetti.

* Nissan style variable valve lift support or at least some way to add that functionality in the future.

* places on the board where risers are MEANT to be placed for future expansion. At least on part of the main board place these mounting locations say, every 2cm OR you could make a whole area of the board meant to have a "prototype area" board that sits on barrel nuts like the current ms3 daughter card does. That way experimenters could mess around with stuff and if at some point in the future if an expander board is made to increase functionality it could sit on that pre-ordained area and not flop around inside the case.

* Keep the CPUs on small daughter cards or in individual chips like the MS1. Being able to upgrade in the future is a big deal IMO.

* As some have said, make the main card larger so we don't have to go too high. Even with expansion I wouldn't want the overall height to be much higher than the MS2 box. Packaging is important.

* I don't have a problem with the DB style connectors but some do. Perhaps create a sub board that functions like an inside case Break Out Board? This would allow individual companies to create specific boards to be PnP with specific ECUs. This would also allow manufacturers to deal with non-ECU functions like EBC creatively. Conversely, the standard kit could come with a standard DB or something like what is on the MS3pro that the user assembles himself. Basically my idea is reduce the amount of adapter/jumper cables if possible.
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread

Post by piledriver »

I'm actively working on a dual plugged GDi motor, so far so good.

The feature additions I will (likely) need for best results are:
1: second plug timing offset--- Supposedly easy to do leveraging the rotary trailing spark code?
2: "Double tap" injection for stratified charge modes: may not be an issue as I plan to also run staged port injectors.
3: Higher injector timing resolution? Not sure this will be an issue, but the DC will always be <50%, usually much less.

The early Mazda 3/6 GDi injector driver box I have looks like it will work just fine to drive the GDi injectors.
Last edited by piledriver on Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Always doing things the hard way, MS2 sequential w/ v1.01 mainboard, LS2 coils. 80 mile/day commuter status.
dontz125
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread

Post by dontz125 »

Chiburbian wrote:* rather than have each injector be high-z or low-z in software (if that is too difficult) how about having the traces already on the board for either and just an instruction of "If using low-z injectors, place resistor R(x) and appropriate_chipx on the board in the proper locations. If using High-z injectors, solder a jumper between point "n" and "m." each output should have some easy place to add a pull-up or other chip/hardware without the use of too much spaghetti.

...

* I don't have a problem with the DB style connectors but some do. Perhaps create a sub board that functions like an inside case Break Out Board? This would allow individual companies to create specific boards to be PnP with specific ECUs. This would also allow manufacturers to deal with non-ECU functions like EBC creatively. Conversely, the standard kit could come with a standard DB or something like what is on the MS3pro that the user assembles himself. Basically my idea is reduce the amount of adapter/jumper cables if possible.
One your first point, I *think* the MSPNP-series has current-sensing injection drivers (I may be wrong, it's happened before :D ). If the current climbs to 4A (or some other limiting value for some threshold time), it's clamped at 1A. Obviously, a Hi-Z injector will just sit there around 1A and won't trigger the clamping circuit. I see no reason why this couldn't be incorporated into the V4 board as standard, especially if DIY is directly involved the way they were with the MS3-Pro design.

On your last point, there's a MS vendor in Quebec whose claim to fame is exactly that - they include a daughter card that plugs into the DB37 footprint with ... some automotive connector on the output side. Again, not hard to arrange, but it may be something that specialist vendors (RX7, BMW, Mustangs, etc) may want to offer as part of their "this is our flavour" efforts, rather than getting it via B&G.
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Chiburbian
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread

Post by Chiburbian »

[quote="dontz125On your last point, there's a MS vendor in Quebec whose claim to fame is exactly that - they include a daughter card that plugs into the DB37 footprint with ... some automotive connector on the output side. Again, not hard to arrange, but it may be something that specialist vendors (RX7, BMW, Mustangs, etc) may want to offer as part of their "this is our flavour" efforts, rather than getting it via B&G.[/quote]

That's fine, but that sounds like the connector lives outside the case. I am proposing that there be empty space inside the case with some sort of header on the board for companies to make adapter boards that plug in. That way any MS4 can be plug and play with standard auto wiring if the proper plug is sourced. Obviously this requires some creativity on how to make it universal but that is assuming enough people find this a desirable enough feature to investigate implimenting.
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread

Post by Matt Cramer »

dontz125 wrote: One your first point, I *think* the MSPNP-series has current-sensing injection drivers (I may be wrong, it's happened before :D ). If the current climbs to 4A (or some other limiting value for some threshold time), it's clamped at 1A. Obviously, a Hi-Z injector will just sit there around 1A and won't trigger the clamping circuit.
Correct. Ones that are set for driving multiple injectors use higher clamp current values.
I see no reason why this couldn't be incorporated into the V4 board as standard, especially if DIY is directly involved the way they were with the MS3-Pro design.
The circuit does have a couple disadvantages:

1. Cost.

2. Bulk. They don't take up quite as much room per output as the four TO-220s per output on the V3.0 driver circuit, but they're still pretty big circuits. Fitting eight in a case can be a challenge unless it's a two sided SMD design, multiple stacked boards, or a case the size of a pizza box.

3. Heat. Some versions of the circuit are hot enough you can fry an egg on the case.
Again, not hard to arrange, but it may be something that specialist vendors (RX7, BMW, Mustangs, etc) may want to offer as part of their "this is our flavour" efforts, rather than getting it via B&G.
Or you can simply stack a module board (MicroSquirt Module, MS3-Pro Module) on a suitable adapter board.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
dontz125
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread

Post by dontz125 »

Chiburbian wrote:that sounds like the connector lives outside the case.
Nope - the adaptor is completely internal, soldered directly into the DB37 footprint on the board. The connector itself sticks out slightly, obviously, just like the DB37 on a standard V3.0 arrangement.
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread

Post by dontz125 »

Matt Cramer wrote:3. Heat. Some versions of the circuit are hot enough you can fry an egg on the case.
That suggests there are versions of the circuit that do NOT act like a waffle griddle. Surely a little experimentation (other people's money, R&D for a new board) might come up with something that runs at acceptable temperatures?
Or you can simply stack a module board (MicroSquirt Module, MS3-Pro Module) on a suitable adapter board.
Isn't the topic of discussion designing a new board, with new features? Perhaps with interchangeable output connectors?
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Matt Cramer
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread

Post by Matt Cramer »

dontz125 wrote:
Matt Cramer wrote:3. Heat. Some versions of the circuit are hot enough you can fry an egg on the case.
That suggests there are versions of the circuit that do NOT act like a waffle griddle. Surely a little experimentation (other people's money, R&D for a new board) might come up with something that runs at acceptable temperatures?
Every variant we've tested runs hot when hooked to low impedance drivers. The variant in the MSPNP does not run as hot as some other configurations. However, if you have eight 2 ohm injectors being clamped to 1 amp of hold current, you've got around 100 watts of heat energy to dissipate. Or about 1/8 of a toaster, in a device that doesn't use forced air cooling.
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread

Post by pit_celica »

dontz125 wrote:
On your last point, there's a MS vendor in Quebec whose claim to fame is exactly that - they include a daughter card that plugs into the DB37 footprint with ... some automotive connector on the output side. Again, not hard to arrange, but it may be something that specialist vendors (RX7, BMW, Mustangs, etc) may want to offer as part of their "this is our flavour" efforts, rather than getting it via B&G.
I think you're talking about this vendor :

http://www.efi4tuning.com/

Just so that everyone know what you are talking about here.

Sam
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread

Post by JAM »

I have recently set up EFI on an engine that has been on a dyno with carbs.
i have some fuel flow numbers and bsfc

maybe more of a software function but...
what about a toggle that converts the VE table to #/hr in each cell, just for visual purpose (non- editable) to see where your settings and VE map etc put you for fuel flow?
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread

Post by muythaibxr »

that would be a tuning sw option.
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hardline
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread

Post by hardline »

Features I'd like to see in the next iteration of MS. There may be overlap with other user's posts.

onboard baro sensor
GDI capability
onboard support for multiple cam vvt
Throttle by wire
variable displacement support (cylinder inactivation)
onboard support for wheelspeed traction control
Onboard support for knock sensors
coding support for evaporative emissions and egr
multiple independent canbus transceivers
drop serial communication altogether, fully utilize USB
humidity used in air density calculations
Basic diagnostic features with static memory to store trouble codes
Catalyst efficiency monitoring
Move away from the db style connectors to a connector that has a weather resistant seal and a positive retention lock
injector lag time calculation mode
multiple spark events in low rpm operation
higher resolution for PWM Idle and Fuel Pump control
use generic output status as trigger for table switching
misfire monitoring
yaw / active center differential control

I am sure there will be other things I think of later, this represents about a day's worth of thoughts
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread

Post by Paul_VR6 »

pit_celica wrote:
dontz125 wrote:
On your last point, there's a MS vendor in Quebec whose claim to fame is exactly that - they include a daughter card that plugs into the DB37 footprint with ... some automotive connector on the output side. Again, not hard to arrange, but it may be something that specialist vendors (RX7, BMW, Mustangs, etc) may want to offer as part of their "this is our flavour" efforts, rather than getting it via B&G.
I think you're talking about this vendor :

http://www.efi4tuning.com/

Just so that everyone know what you are talking about here.

Sam
Working on one of those right now and its got a 12v to ground short and with the connector daughter board and the injector board you can't get to a thing without cutting it all out. I am all for better connectors but its not a great implementation and hasn't caught on widely.

Want to second (or third)

Direct inj
Electronic throttle

Those are the things that I could do more installs with.
-Paul
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread

Post by mr_minnis »

Here is the wishlist I have

1) more analog inputs or the ability to change an input from a pwm to an analog input in software or jumper wire
2) get rid of the USB connector, replace it with a Bluetooth
3) OBD2 connectivity (read only). Be able to scan codes only. Have to clear codes through Tuner Studio. Go a step further and make it read/write and have adapter for use with tuner studio for connectivity
4) integrated wide band controllers.
5) I like the idea of the firing order in software
6)built in sequential for fuel and spark.
7) more VR conditioning circuits
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread

Post by dontz125 »

2) Some folks have commented / grumbled about issues with flashing firmware over BT. It's apparently fragile enough that it takes forever. I agree with onboard BT, but IMHO should be in addition to a hard wired method.

4) The biggest problem with onboard WB controllers is the number of wires, and thus connector pins - especially if you start adding more units. Not necessarily a deal breaker, but something to bear in mind.

6) Not sure what you mean; the MS2 and MS3 are capable of sequential. Something thats been tossed out once or twice is the "try it and see" method of sync - crank sensor only, start in wasted spark. Assume #1 is coming to TDC Power, attempt to run. If the engine falters, flip the phase.

7) Out of curiosity, how many inputs do you need? The MAX9926 chips used by jbperf and the uS V3 are pretty small.
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread

Post by mr_minnis »

dontz125 wrote:2) Some folks have commented / grumbled about issues with flashing firmware over BT. It's apparently fragile enough that it takes forever. I agree with on board BT, but IMHO should be in addition to a hard wired method.
Yes! I was thinking DB9 and a BT. I think The BT is more useable than USB.
dontz125 wrote: 4) The biggest problem with on board WB controllers is the number of wires, and thus connector pins - especially if you start adding more units. Not necessarily a deal breaker, but something to bear in mind.
My thinking on this is have it expandable. My guess is people will want 2. (I'd love to have 8 but that is too much money) have the controllers in the case and have the wring on a separate connector. the dealer can supply the wiring to the sensors. If people want more they can have an external box
dontz125 wrote: 6) Not sure what you mean; the MS2 and MS3 are capable of sequential. Something that's been tossed out once or twice is the "try it and see" method of sync - crank sensor only, start in wasted spark. Assume #1 is coming to TDC Power, attempt to run. If the engine falters, flip the phase.
build in without the need for an expansion card. Like the ms-pro
dontz125 wrote: 7) Out of curiosity, how many inputs do you need? The MAX9926 chips used by jbperf and the uS V3 are pretty small.
If I would throw a number out I would say 5. Oil pressure, oil temp, fuel temp plus room for expansion.

i don't have an issue with jean's products. I just don't want to buy extra boxes and chips.
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread

Post by dontz125 »

mr_minnis wrote:
dontz125 wrote: 4) The biggest problem with on board WB controllers is the number of wires, and thus connector pins - especially if you start adding more units. Not necessarily a deal breaker, but something to bear in mind.
My thinking on this is have it expandable. My guess is people will want 2. (I'd love to have 8 but that is too much money) have the controllers in the case and have the wring on a separate connector. the dealer can supply the wiring to the sensors. If people want more they can have an external box
Each sensor is 6 wires, 5 if the heater power is kept external. 2 sensors is 10, 8 sensors is 40 ...
dontz125 wrote: 7) Out of curiosity, how many inputs do you need? The MAX9926 chips used by jbperf and the uS V3 are pretty small.
If I would throw a number out I would say 5. Oil pressure, oil temp, fuel temp plus room for expansion.

i don't have an issue with jean's products. I just don't want to buy extra boxes and chips.
?? Oil pressure & temp, fuel temp don't use VR conditioning circuits. They use ADC filters.
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread

Post by racingmini_mtl »

This may or may not fit here but what I'd like to see is plans to have a real module from the start. Such a module should be usable on a custom carrier board to use whatever case format and connector(s) is desired such that small specialized markets can be catered to by individuals or small companies. And it should be affordable. At the moment, we have the choice between the uSM which is too constraining and with less than ideal hardware and not competitively priced compared to the cased uS and the MS3Pro module which is too much hardware, too big and too expensive for many applications (it's a nice product but definitely not a universal one).

What would be needed is the smallest footprint possible so that it is possible to use the module in a small enclosure for small engine or basic configuration applications. But you'd want the possibility of using all the code and processor features and I/Os so a small footprint connector (or more likely connectors) should bring out all the I/Os.

What I would see being on the module would be:
  • the processor
  • CAN transceiver
  • ADC conditioners for the basic/essential sensors
  • micro SD card
  • RTC
What could be there would be:
  • the power supply if it can provide 0.5A to 1A externally without heat issues
  • dual VR conditioners if using something quasi universal like the MAX9926 and using 2 extra lines is not an issue
  • additional ADC conditioners for a few generic sensors
And I would not want to see any output driver on the module. The injectors can have different drivers for low and high Z injectors and we've seen the issues with the one currently used. Ignition coils need different drivers depending on the coils. And digital and PWM outputs have different needs depending on applications.

As for the I/Os on the module, here is the set I'd like to see off the top of my head:
  • up to 12 injector channels
  • up to 12 ignition channels
  • up to 16 analog inputs (with a subset having on-board conditioners)
  • 2 serial ports (TTL-level) for RS232, USB, Bluetooth, ...
  • 2 CAN ports (one on-board transceiver which uses the MS protocol)
  • I2C port
  • SPI port
  • 5V reference (either an input or an output depending on where the power supply is located)
  • 8 or more timer I/Os that can either be inputs or outputs
  • all the spare I/Os from the CPU
As I said, we currently only have 2 options if we want to build a custom MegaSquirt-based ECU. The uSM is very limited and is near the end of its life cycle; the MS3Pro module is inappropriate for many applications due to size, hardware and cost. What I describe above could have been an MS3 module (non-Pro) and a 4-cylinder version would fit very well between the 2 current modules. But a future Megasquirt version with a module version from the start that is really flexible and affordable would be very well received by many small/specialised vendors. Of course, this assumes that this is a market that the Megasquirt people want to cater to and keep. If that's not the case, then some people may start looking somewhere else (as is already happening).

Jean
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