Anyone used one of these for a cam sensor?

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Anyone used one of these for a cam sensor?

Postby Kugel8x57 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:07 pm

Hello Everyone,

Edit ---> Megasquirt Newbie, here, obviously! :lol: And thanks to the moderators for approving my first post so quickly!

I'm in the planning stages for a 2180cc VW engine build (Baja Bug), and I am very intrigued by the Microsquirt.

I've known about the Compu Fire Ignition points replacement and coils for a long time, but I just saw this Hall Effect cap/rotor sensor for the 009 Bosch distributor:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cfi-22511

I downloaded and read their install manual. It says that there is a dot, and showed a picture of it, near one of the magnets, and that this dot/magnet should be installed to point to the normal #1 Cylinder TDC position. According to Compu Fire (Pertronix), proper installation will guarantee proper, initial timing, and that it will never get out of synch, when used with their complete Distributorless Ignition System.

This tells me that there has to be more there than meets the eye. Gotta be another sensor or magnet that they use but, if that is so, I feel like this should work as a full blown, absolute cam/crank sensor, and, therefore should work great as the Microsquirt Input, as long as the voltage is made compatible.

Thoughts? Anyone using one of these as a Microsquirt input on a VW engine?

Thanks in advance and God Bless!

Kugel :D
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Re: Anyone used one of these for a cam sensor?

Postby billr » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:34 am

It is pretty crude for a CKP sensor, just a "basic trigger". Use the money to put a missing-tooth wheel on the crank. For the CMP it could work fine, but whatever you have in the existing dizzy could be made to work with little additional cost.
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Re: Anyone used one of these for a cam sensor?

Postby Kugel8x57 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:49 am

billr wrote:It is pretty crude for a CKP sensor, just a "basic trigger". Use the money to put a missing-tooth wheel on the crank. For the CMP it could work fine, but whatever you have in the existing dizzy could be made to work with little additional cost.


Thanks for the reply! Please clarify a couple of things for me.
CKP sensor = Crank Position sensor?
CMP = ???????????????

Many Thanks and God Bless!

Kugel
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Re: Anyone used one of these for a cam sensor?

Postby billr » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:58 am

Yes, CKP = CranK Position; CMP = CaM Position

There are several members here with VW flat-4s, you should be able to get plenty of help with that specific engine.
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Re: Anyone used one of these for a cam sensor?

Postby Kugel8x57 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:09 am

Thank you again, sir!

Kugel :)
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Re: Anyone used one of these for a cam sensor?

Postby Kugel8x57 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:48 pm

Found an old post - somewhere on this board, but don't remember the forum - talking about using a 24-1 wheel as the dizzy rotor and setting the software for "cam sensor" mode. I believe MicroSquirt has this capability and would then be able to run full sequential spark with COP.

I have access to a friends machine shop. I think I'll look into designing/building an aluminum rotor with 24-1 neodymium magnets (3mm diam x 1mm thick) and use a hall effect sensor as the pick up.

The reason I don't really want to run a crank sensor is because of exposure to the elements, which, for a Baja Bug, might not be a good thing! :) With the dizzy "cam sensor", I can make a cap to "seal" the dizzy and protect the guts from water, mud, dust, sand, etc.

Thoughts?

Many Thanks and God Bless!

Kugel
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Re: Anyone used one of these for a cam sensor?

Postby piledriver » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:33 pm

A 009 distributor body has room for a 72 tooth 32 pitch RC truck spur gear.
A tiny touch of TIG can turn it into a 72-1.
(So could a file, but read on)
All you need is the wheel, a sensor, some 3/8" thin wall brass hobby tubing and a couple orings to center it.
The gear has a .385" ID... Brass tubing fits inside.

I used an ATS667 gear tooth sensor and made up a proper pickup, it was tested on the 36-2* I am running now to ~17K shaft RPM on an MS3.
I initially filed out the "missing tooth" but the ATS667 didn't like the signal from that, with a filled in tooth worked awesome.

*TIG welder dials setup issue, but works fine.

Redline Weber also sells a pre-modded 009 with a Honda VR sensor and 24-1 wheel that should work fine.

Missing tooth wheel at cam speed supports full sequential operation on MS2E or MS3.

The ShopTalkForums has a very specific MS support subforum for ACVWs.
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewforum.php?f=23


edited for spelling... :oops:
Last edited by piledriver on Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Always doing things the hard way, MS2 sequential w/ v1.01 mainboard, LS2 coils. 80 mile/day commuter status.
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Re: Anyone used one of these for a cam sensor?

Postby Kugel8x57 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:37 am

Thanks Piledriver!

I went over to the Shoptalkforums and read a bunch of stuff over there. Very informative and interesting.

Best Regards and God Bless!

Kugel
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Re: Anyone used one of these for a cam sensor?

Postby Kugel8x57 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:10 pm

Attached is a 3D PDF. The regular Adobe Reader will open it - unless you have a really old version - and allow you to rotate it around.

Aluminum Body with either Magnet Pins or Steel Pins, depending on the sensor type. As shown it would weigh about 4oz. I stress that this is a Preliminary Design. Just threw something together, while I was thinking about it! :D

As you can see it is, basically, a 24-1 target wheel design. The sensor would sit inside of a new cap looking down on the pins.

With a Microsquirt running MS2E, this would give me a full sequential spark in a very simple and very rugged dirt, mud, dust resistant mounting.

I could also adapt it to other Dizzies. Anyone that wanted to convert an older distributor spark to DIS with Megasquirt could use one and not have to add a crank wheel and sensor.

Thoughts??
Attachments
Dizzy Cam Target Rotor.pdf
Preliminary Design for VW Dizzy Cam Sensor Target Rotor
(105.52 KiB) Downloaded 18 times
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Re: Anyone used one of these for a cam sensor?

Postby Six_Shooter » Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:32 am

I've run an external crank trigger for years, through all sorts of weather and elements. Dry weather, snow, rain, dirt roads, asphalt, etc. ZERO issues from external elements. I have had a couple issues from my own stupidity and overlooking a couple things. These crank triggers have been in both daily drivers and toys.

I mention this simply because I had the same reservations as you before building my external crank trigger, but it was the easiest thing to do at the time and had other aspects to deal with. I never found a reason to change to a different trigger setup.
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