1991 Toyota MR2 w/2000 5SFE MS3X

[Zysky]

Hello all, my name is Adam and I am new to the MS family. My project is a 1991 Toyota MR2 with a 5SFE 2.2l i4 from a 2000 Toyota Camry. I opted for this engine to have fully sequential fuel injection and wasted spark ignition, plus it is known that the 97+ 5SFE block has reinforcements in certain areas compared to earlier revisions. The engine remains stock. Sensor configurations are as follows:

Clt and iat - purchased from diyautotune
Tps - stock Toyota
O2 - innovate lm2
Fuel injectors - stock Toyota 235cc
Coils - Toyota dli coil packs (1&4 2&3)
Crank - stock Toyota 2 wire VR, stock 36-2 wheel
Cam - stock Toyota 2 wire VR, stock single tooth wheel

I am running MS3 3.57 with MS3X. I am at a point where I have a good crank and cam signal and am trying to start the engine. I dialed my tooth #1 angle in at 278* and confirmed with a timing light (Innova 3551) that timing is correct per the procedure in the quick start guide.

The engine will either back fire or run momentarily then stop. I've seen others running similar Toyota engines add 360* to their tooth #1 angle as it appeared the engine was firing on the wrong cycle. I plan on trying this tomorrow, hopefully with some success.

I look forward to the challenges in this build and welcome feedback, thanks!

[Zysky]

I added 360* to my tooth angle and got a much smoother start, so I believe I'm firing on the correct phase now.

The engine would not stay running however. Composite logs showed an extra cam trigger, so I carefully dialed that out on the MS3X hysteresis pot (after experimenting with rising edge and falling edge, ultimately settling again on falling edge). This helped get it to idle several seconds longer with clean rpm signals, so I started slowly adjusting the ASE values to increase fuel. After only subtle improvements, I decided to look at my spark plugs as mentioned in the quick start guide. Turns out they may be my issue as they appear completely fouled. I may be partially to blame for putting in regular copper plugs as I had a set for my original 91 5sfe laying around, whereas the 2000 5s with DLI calls for double platinum... they'll arrive Monday, hopefully that will improve my starting and idle issues! My plan is to reset the ASE table back to default to target one variable at a time.

[billr]

Adding 360 deg. to the "tooth #1 angle" will have no effect, since you have a missing-tooth (36-2) crank wheel and wasted-spark. I would just disconnect the CMP sensor for now, that will guarantee it isn't a problem or add to confusion as you get this up-and-running. It looks like that 3551 light is a simple one, so we don't have to wonder if you are getting confused with dial-back "features". Have you put an extra timing mark on the crank, at TDC for the other pair of cylinders, to be sure spark is OK on that coil too?

Copper plugs will work fine, that isn't your root problem. Post a run log (MSL) and tooth-log.

[Zysky]

billr,

Thank you for the info on tooth #1 angle, good to know! I have not added additional timing marks for the other coil. I will look up some info on that and try that out. If it is what it sounds like, I would set either cylinder 2 or 3 at TDC then place a mark at the 0* mark on the pulley and look for that while the timing light is connected to the corresponding plug wire?

I'll see if I can get those logs tomorrow, kids are asleep and the MR2 is too loud to crank right now!

Your help is much appreciated, thanks again!

[billr]

I wouldn't bother to find an accurate TDC for 2 & 3, using a piston stop or similar. Just put a piece of white tape on the pulley about 180 deg. off from the #1 TDC, nothing super accurate. You are just trying to verify that there is nothing grossly wrong with the spark config that is causing the back-firing.

[Zysky]

Gotcha, I'll give that a try. In the mean time, I was able to go grab a quick tooth log. I assume for the run log, that needs to be taken from when I have all fuses and relays back in place correct?

[billr]

Actually, a run log can be obtained if only the MS is powered-up and will connect to TS. You are correct though, for an MSL to be as meaningful as possible everything should be connected and the engine should be cranked, at least, or started and run.

PS: the tooth-log looks OK

[Zysky]

While I'm thinking about it, should fixed advance be set to "use table" or a fixed value for this initial phase? I've seen some posts recommending a fixed value around 15* for initial startup work.

[Zysky]

I confirmed that the second set of coils is firing, cylinder 2 TDC is approximately 180* from cylinder 1. The other thing I did before trying to fire up again was to check my PCV valve, which turned out to be clogged so a new one was put on. I meant to do that a while ago and forgot about it!

Attached are three logs from this morning.

1st run was with cam sensor still attached with fixed advance enabled instead of "use table" and set at 15*. Fairly uneventful, maybe ran for a few seconds.

2nd run was done with no cam sensor, "use table" selected. If i remember this ran a little longer than my first start of the day but not by much.

3rd run was done with no cam sensor, "fixed advance" selected and set at 15*. This ran for about a minute, enough time for me to actually get out of the car, look for any oddities on the engine (leaks, etc.), and peak at the laptop on the bench behind the car.

[Zysky]

The engine was able to stay running long enough to look at the timing at a rough idle, which appeared to stay right on the money. I also tried cranking with my foot lightly on the throttle, and ran fairly well. My tach doesn't work yet and I couldn't see the laptop to see what RPM the engine was running at, however the felt like it ran smooth so long as I kept throttle position constant.

I'm also trying to track down a random, loud squeak/chirp while running. It's difficult to track down since the engine won't stay running long enough to really listen and look around. It did appear to go away completely when I held the throttle open. All belts and tensioners are new, clutch, flywheel, throw out bearing, clutch slave cylinder, water pump are all brand new. Hoping I can figure out what is causing the noise, and that it isn't a anything major!

Edit: checked compression across cylinders and had a steady 200 psi on all 4. I had one instance of the squeak while cranking, suspecting possibly the clutch hydraulics were not completely bled and maybe causing it to hang in a little. The sound seemed to be closer to the engine/transmission junction and only made itself obvious during the peak of the cranking cycle. I cycled to fork and slave cylinder to the extent that I could before finishing checking the other cylinders. The noise did not show up on the remaining 3 cylinders.

[billr]

"The noise did show up on the remaining 3 cylinders."

Is there a typo there, did you mean the noise did not show up?

Try cranking/running with all the accessory belts off, to eliminate any of that stuff as being the squeak. You can run a cold engine for a minute or two, even if the water pump isn't turning.

[Zysky]

You are correct, I meant to say the noise did NOT show up while cranking on the other three cylinders.

Thankfully the only belt I have to worry about is my alternator belt, as water and oil pumps are driven off my timing belt. I'll pull that one and see if that helps. I also plan on bleeding the clutch hydraulics thoroughly to make sure that isn't an issue,it that depends on getting a helper since I don't have the adapter for my Motive bleeder.

[billr]

I don't think any bleeding/adjustment of the clutch will affect the chirp. The bearing should be quiet in every condition from no load on it to pushing against the pressure-plate fingers with full force.

[Zysky]

I certainly hope it's nothing from the clutch system. I think I remember the alternator being noisy when the car ran several years ago.

Any chance to look over the logs I posted this morning? I'm still reading up on how to interpret and understand them.

[billr]

No, I didn't look at them last night, will study them later today.

[Zysky]

Your help is much appreciated!

[billr]

Post a fresh MSQ each time we get and MSL; or confirm which MSQ the MSL(s) correlate to.

I would focus now on the "no CMP but with spark table" mode for a while. Back off on the cranking advance to try taming some of the back-fires; set it to zero. Increase the WUE, it is pretty slim. Lastly, the spark advance in the idle area of the table seems more than it should be, take out 5-10 deg in all those bins. Let's see if you can get it to reliably start and run like that.

[Zysky]

Here is the MSQ I plan on trying in the morning. I will post datalogs and feedback from my attempt.

[Zysky]

Attached is the log file associated with the MSQ in my last post.

Engine appeared to run a little more smooth and had less hesitation starting and running, certainly an improvement over where I was!

One thing I need to do is rewire the power to the controller on my Innovate LM-2 (to be clear, analog output ground is tied in to my MS sensor grounds). Currently, I am using the included cigarette plug adapter to power up the controller and that just does not seem to play well with the MR2 as it is on a 12V circuit that cuts power during cranking. I'm probably out of wire to reach the trunk where my MS power wires are, so I may splice into a switched 12V somewhere up front until I order some more wire and can reach the trunk.

Regarding chasing down noises I heard earlier, I think the alternator may be contributing a small amount but is not the primary source. The squeal is more prevalent on startup now, so perhaps my starter is sticking slightly or has some bearing on its way out... I do hear some lifter tick, sounds more so on cylinder 1 and 2 but haven't confirmed with screwdriver-stethoscope method (cyl. 3 and 4 sounded OK).

[billr]

Humor me, pry back-and-forth on the crank and check end-play of the crank. It is easy to do on that car, no time to explain right now how I know...