BMW, VANOS and Megasquirt

[M_US_E30]

If you want big NA power out of a 4 cly. go for an s14, its a bad-ass high-revving engine. The stock us-spec s14 makes 189hp with the standard motronic. Chips allow a redline of 8200rpm, making it a very peaky motor. Rebuild one and make it 2.5 litre and youre looking at the 280hp range. Unfortunately, they're very expensive, and its a rull race engine, you'll need to know what you're doing when rebuilding, and maintaining. If you want more info on how to make a high power s14 checkout a few websites:

www.turnermotorsport.com
www.vacmotorsports.com
e30m3performance.com

The top two are retail sites that have tons of parts, the last one is an all around guide to e30 m3s as a race car.

Hope this helps, and I'll be seeing you all arround shortly.

-Addis

You forgot the most important one, s14.net.

T

[milesinfront]

Generally, yes...

[Jon k]

Ok so if i want to retain the factory coil pack system... what are my options with MS?

Am I limited to only fuel control?

The conversion to the EDIS or what not sounds like a big deal. This is on a supercharged M50 NON VANOS (no variable timing).

[efahl]

Ok so if i want to retain the factory coil pack system... what are my options with MS?

Jon,

James just released an alpha version of the Extra code that supports COP on 6, up to 255 tooth triggers and cam sync. If you are adventurous you might want to be the test bed for this code on your motor...

Eric

[Jon k]

Im going to go ahead and look dumb,

Does this "alpha" code rely on NOTHING except my stock system? No swapping trigger wheels, no swapping coil packs? I have no distributor just5 direct fire coils.

[jsmcortina]

Does this "alpha" code rely on NOTHING except my stock system? No swapping trigger wheels, no swapping coil packs? I have no distributor just5 direct fire coils.

Possibly. It depends on what trigger setup you have.

James

[garrymc]

Looks like wasted spark would be the way to go, at least for a beginner like me- and honestly, the main thing I'm looking for is a good motor to swap into a '69 Opel GT, the BMW I6s look like the way to go. And as a bonus, the car would stay all German! Really though, I have a lot I'd have to do; its quite possible the I6 would be too long, and not sure if the I4 would be worthwhile...

Go Opel ! Have you been to opelgt.com ? Great group of people there.

Garry

[efahl]

Does this "alpha" code rely on NOTHING except my stock system? No swapping trigger wheels, no swapping coil packs? I have no distributor just5 direct fire coils.

Jon,

As James says, maybe. This is what alpha testing will reveal: can we use the stock 135 tooth crank wheel VR output combine with the single-window cam sync Hall sensor in the distributor to actually give us a reliable trigger at 7000 RPM. If this works out, then the answer is "yes, you can use just stock Audi MC/3B/AAN inputs and hook the motor up to 5 coils (or whatever)."

Eric

[Jon k]

Sorry, I meant to say 6 coils.

[coldfusion21]

so as far as i can tell we can take the 60-2 bosch wheel, a cam sync (not sure what BMW has for use) and we can fire the 6 COP's?

[milesinfront]

I didn't think we needed the cam sync... My take on this was using 'wheel decoding' on the enhanced code. Then use 3 spark outputs from MS to control 3 external ignition controllers which in turn drive 2 coils each to end up with a wasted spark setup....

Actually the 3 spark outputs from MS may have to run 6 ignition controllers, unless of course the BMW coil packs have ignition drivers built in.....

[jsmcortina]

I didn't think we needed the cam sync... My take on this was using 'wheel decoding' on the enhanced code. Then use 3 spark outputs from MS to control 3 external ignition controllers which in turn drive 2 coils each to end up with a wasted spark setup....

Actually the 3 spark outputs from MS may have to run 6 ignition controllers, unless of course the BMW coil packs have ignition drivers built in.....

For wasted spark you need a crank wheel.
For COP you need a crank wheel and a cam wheel.

The 027a code adds 6cyl COP support.

James

[jrez]

I guess I'm finding this thread a little late....


Interesting stuff though. The point about the VANOS signal being digital.. the signal to the oil pressure solenoid is anologue from my experience. The test tool is just an on/off switch which opens/closes the solenoid valve, letting you check advance/retard, using air pressure.

I did manage to get the motor to work with OBD2(into my E30), but it took a bit of time.
It is doable, and perhaps less work than converting to MS. For turboing, it most likely would be better to go MS2, or build a setup identicle to a commercial one, and purchase the programming.

OBD2 intake manifold sucks though, M3 cams, M50 intake, and suitable programming are next for me.


John

[froej25]

Garry-
Yeah, I've been to opelgt.com. One of the better sites I've found for the GT. Its a good source of info- not that much out there for them, kinda a cult car. If this one had been mint, I would have felt bad diving into it, but it was in fairly rough shape when we got it (we saved it from a scrap yard). Somewhere I found a writeup on swapping a 1980s BMW 318 rear suspension into the Opel; its the same differential used in the 5 series, and supposedly can hold 300+ horsepower. And its roughly the right width, and compact enough to be swapped in fairly easily. Not sure yet what we're going to do up front- engine or suspension. That transverse leaf spring setup is kinda goofy; but there isn't much room for anything else. I don't think the I6 will be compact enough- probably end up with a latter BMW 4-cylinder, or a GM 60 degree v6 (well, it IS an Opel engine, really...). Whatever it is, it'll be MS'ed for sure.

[mooseheadm5]

To answer a few questions,:
Single VANOS is a simple on/off signal (12V hot always, computer grounds to activate, if I remember correctly)
Using EDIS would be great for an M50 family engine (apart from having to ditch the plastic coil cover. As long as the code can decode the 60-2 wheel that the car already has, it should be a snap.
BMW COPs have +, -, and trigger inputs (the computer should only have to supply the trigger signal at the proper time, which MS can do. If the code won't support 6 coils, maybe you can trigger 2 coils at once?
BMW uses an intake cam trigger wheel for cam sync. It is located in the M50 head right beside the VANOS solenoid.

Background:
Car designations:
1st digit: car platform (3, 5, 7)
2nd & 3rd digits: engine displacement (liters, add “.” Between numbers (23=2.3L))

The last two digits often represent the engine displacement, but in cases like the E36 and E46 323i, the motors are 2.5l, but BMW wanted to justify charging a premium for the 328i by pretending it was an entire 0.5l larger motor.

Exx designation- I have no idea here, not sure what it means, just that all members of a certain platform share the same one- i.e., E36 is the 1991-1998 3-series (I believe).

112 - 1502, 1602, 2002 M10 engine
E3 - 3.0S, Si, Bavaria M30 engine
E9 - 3.0CS M30

E21 - late 70's-early 80s 320i 2.0 and 1.8l M10 motor
E30 - 84-91 (93 in convertible) 3 series 1.8l M10, M20 2.5 (325i) and M20 2.7 eta motor (less power from more displacement), M42 1.8 and S14 2.3
E36 - 92-98 (up to 2000 M3& conv.) 3 series M42 1.8, M44 1.9, M50 2.5, S50 3.0, M52 2.5 and 2.8, and S52 3.2 motors
E46 - 99-04 3 series M54 2.5, 2.8, 3.0 and M56 SLEV

E12- 74-81 1st gen 5 series M30 2.8 and 3.0
E28 - 82- 88 2nd gen 5 M20 2.7, M30 3.2 and 3.5, S38 3.5
E34 - 88 - 96 3rd gen M30 3.5, M60/1 3.0, M60/2 4.0, S38 3.6
E39 - 97- 04 4th gen M62 4.4, M54 2.8, 3.0

I could go on, but it would take a while. These are the cars of most interest to MS people.

Engine designations:
1st digit: M=?, S= solid lifter, N=?, W=?
2nd digit: 4= I4, 5= I6, 6= V8, 7=V12
3rd digit: evolution of previous engine?

Not as right that time.
M is a regular mass production engine
S is an engine built by BMW M (the solid lifters designation does not apply to all M engines, and the S was used before any BMWs had hydraulic lifters)
2nd digit: engine family:
4 bangers: M10, S16, M40 (europe only) M42, M44
6 bangers: M30, M20, M50, M52, M54, M56, S50, S52, S54, N5x(whatever the E90 uses)
8s: M60/1, M60/2, M62, etc
12s: M70, M73, S70, etc
3rd digit: evolution in the engine family
tu= technical update (M50tu is first VANOS motor, just a technical update of the M50.)

Now, my question: Is there any MS II code that can currently decode the 60-2 wheel, or do you have to use MS I with MSnS+E (or whatever it is.) Point me to the correct area for this, because as I understand it, the EDIS uses a 36-1 that triggers directly to the EDIS unit, whereas any other trigger wheel signal must first go through the MS unit for signal conditioning before it goes to the EDIS unit.

[froej25]

Not sure if you found this yet, but as far as COP goes, this is going to be your best bet: http://www.megasquirt.info/router/. That's for the upcoming router board, not sure how its coming along presently, but the hope is that it will be configurable for any kind and combination of sensor wheel. I don't think EDIS would work, unless you mounted the Ford wheel on the crank; its a closed system that just sends a signal to and gets a signal from MS (http://www.megasquirt.info/ms2/EDIS.htm); I imagine if the module sees a signal that it isn't expecting, it'll freak out and not put out anything useful. However, if you did put the wheel on, it should work; I've seen references that indicate that the coils are not integrated into the unit, so I think you could just trigger them in pairs without modifying the EDIS extensively.

Man, BMW seems to be very un-German with the way they name their engines / platforms. No wonder I couldn't figure out their system, its a mess. I suppose that has historical reasons- BMW's rather recent product diversification, and their niche-within-a-niche products (the Ms), would make it difficult to organize a logical system; add a smaller or larger vehicle, and suddenly what made sense before doesn't anymore. And putting numbers on the car that don't match reality... Oh well, just have to deal with it I suppose.

[mooseheadm5]

Man, BMW seems to be very un-German with the way they name their engines / platforms. No wonder I couldn't figure out their system, its a mess. I suppose that has historical reasons- BMW's rather recent product diversification, and their niche-within-a-niche products (the Ms), would make it difficult to organize a logical system; add a smaller or larger vehicle, and suddenly what made sense before doesn't anymore. And putting numbers on the car that don't match reality... Oh well, just have to deal with it I suppose.

It is sort of logical. As far as platform designations, I think it has to do with which design they choose from the ones presented in preproduction. The engines have a definite family designation (M50 became M52, then M54, etc.)

MB uses wierd numbering for their platforms, too.
-Paul

[jsmcortina]

Dredging this topic up from the dead. Looks like we are getting closer to controlling this.

James

[Peter Florance]

Dredging this topic up from the dead. Looks like we are getting closer to controlling this.

James

I have a local car ready any time