4AGZE turbo question

[Careless]

hey guys,

a friend and I are starting to build up his corolla again from the ground up. Recently (before we picked her dry) she was running a 4AGZE from AW11 MR2 with a bigport head, and now she's gonna be running a small (T2/T25 maybe) turbocharger instead of the super.

We ordered the parts (MSv3.0), and they came in, and i will be soldering the board this week. But the problem we've encountered is the decision on how to drive the coils or regulate the fuel/spark control. We know that in order to run Spark control, you'd need to have the MSII daughter board, as it provides the spark control feature, but we're unsure as to if we need the EDIS module still.

I know it seems like a daunting task, but searching for info results in a lot of hibbity bibbity and we dont even know what parts can be dropped, and what parts we can keep.

Most of the cars behind the shop that we're working with have been donated (because they were Found On Road Dead ) and they contain the entire EDIS4 system, except there's all these variations talked about in all the FAQ's that dont use the 36-1 trigger wheel, and uses the stock distributor instead. This is sorta confusing because we thought that the coils had to be driven off the EDIS system, but now im reading that it only allows fuel control, and the spark is handled by the EDIS module. But if using this distributor setup, you can control both Fuel and Spark.

But that doesnt make sense to us because we have nowhere to look at schematics, and with all this talk about it, everyone seems to be talking chinese, and we havent a clue where this dizzy came in, and why it does stuff that EDIS or MSI cant do.

So what we're asking is:

1) what is the best system to run the spark and fuel. we have no intention of running the stock system, unless it's easier and better in the long run, as opposed to EDIS.

2) tuning time is not a problem, we have access to a dyno with someone who wants to try out the system and see what it's got (very knowleadgeable guy). He wants to see what it's capable of, and not have the system limited to what the stock hardware can only provide. (which is why finding the most tuneable, and reliable setup is what we're after)

3) are there are diagrams or schematics that would lend a hand to choosing which system would be best, or to aid us in creating the circuits once we make our choice. my father has been teacher AC/DC motors and electical components at a college for over 32 years, but i dont want to have to bother him with every single question that we could possibly have, as he's getting old and starting to lose his vision, and is more versed in older circuitry and how they did it back in the hay-day. so if theres something we dont undertand (after someone provides what they consider to be easy info/alternative methods, and what-not), we can use him as a knowledge base for troubleshooting and decision making. he's not well versed in cars, that why the first people i would ask are the people here, although i imagine we will need his help.

****VERY IMPORTANT****

if there is no guide or schematic, i have various programs that i've used to create layouts for printed circuit boards and schematics, as well as extensive graphics knowledge, so i can design a FULL COLOUR full info PDF booklet for everyone to follow as a guide to start and finish from the exact predicament we're in, here, with it going as smooth as possible for them. We're willing to help the community with this as much as, if not moreso than they'd help us, just for the fact that we're nice that way

4) Can i use artic silver 5 thermal paste as opposed to the provided china-backyard paste that comes with these components in the DIY kit, i put together computers and i find that it is not only a great thermal compound, it's the best , year after year, revision after revision, and it is tested like no other compound, so it SHOULD yeild better results, should it not? i have some left over by running it on my overclocked home computer and it had a 5 degree difference.

The car is a 85 Corolla coupe that has been pretty much stripped to the bone, so we have access or room for removal of all unneccessary wiring.


ALSO, we will be running a CPC (circular plastic connector) as a quick release hub for a wiring harness that is water proof, firewall mounted, and a quick disconnection for migrating the entire system to a new engine if need be, within just hours. I can provide info and diags for that aswell.


SO, i know this is a super long read, but we're loving what we have done to the car so far, and the project is gonna be a big one and a great experience for us and all of the people looking for the same system. So please take the time to read through this (well you would have alread if you got this far, unless you skipped it all....... meany-pants ) and answer some of our questions to the best of your knowledge, as we were a little dumbfounded with the current posts we tried to read.

Also, we're from Toronto or GTA area, so if anyone in that area is willing to meet up or take the time to explain further in person or whatnot, we will return the favour no problem, guaranteed.

[sparkandfuel.com]

I've helped a LOT of 4ag'ers and toyota users, you could call it my stomping ground. I too have an ae86.

from what I know about your 4agze motor from an aw11, you are working with a distributor based ignition and an AFM. right?

with this in mind, you DO have the choice of keeping your oem distributor based ignition, and you DO have the option to get rid of your AFM (ahem) *turbo*(cough)
in fact, I would recommend that you keep the oem distributor and give it a new rotor/cap and maybe a new seal on the bottom o-rings, it's an all around good system already and there will be zero actual performance gains by switching to anything different. the only reason you would NEED to go with edis is if your oem ignition was incompatable with megasquirt- which yours is compleately compatable. the only other real reason to change would be if you've got "the bug" and feel the need to change/modify/(try to) improve things. which is, i think, obligitory at this point- you are on an engine tuning forum after all. haha.


you also have the option to use MS-I OR MS-II, however it would be best if you were to actually use MS-I instead because of the MegasquirtnSpark-Extra firmware (msns-e) which allows for some pretty rad board mods so you can control many things besides just the motor.
if you want the megasquirt to run your boost control solenoid, you will need to go with msns-e.
while the MS-II processor itself is superior to the MS-I processor, the firmware that runs the MS-II has some catching up to do in order to overtake the useability and functionality of the msns-e firmware. so, currently (and probably for a good long while), your best solution would be MS-I. Its less expensive too.

question: did you get a MS-I or MS-II kit?

you may want to check out this writeup:
http://forums.sparkandfuel.com/viewtopic.php?t=17

it will most likely give you a good heads up on your signal designators at the very least. most of the quantitive numbers will need to be juiced up for boost applications, but this will get you started.

[Careless]

hey thanks for reading all of that SnF.com!

we're running MSIv3.0, not MSII.

so i guess we could stick with that then, after reading your entire setup.

so you think it's best to stick with the entire distributor setup that came with the engine? we will be removing the AFM, and probably be buying a sensor off you.

question: is fuel and spark controllable using the setup you've recommended?

i'd imagine it's only fuel, and the dizzy would handle spark. if i want to go the route where the MS handles spark, i'd have to do that entire grinding off of the opposing teeth, and then run the spark control through a coil pack which is controlled through MS, correct?

if there's no gain in performance then there wouldnt be a point for that, i guess. but managing spark and fuel could prove better down the road for fine tuning, would it not?


or am i totally out on a limb here, waiting for it to separate itself from the tree

[Careless]

also, i see you took the camry ecu and popped out the receptacle for the ecu harness.

what we will be doing is going with the CPC24 or CPC37 connector.

it is not he same as a DB. it is infact, a surface mounted or flanged circular plastic connector.

In doing this, we will be able to swap the entire engine completely with only the removal of that one connector. we wouldn't have to feed anything through from the other side of the firewall. it will be completely plug and play. we bought a 6ft pre-fabbed MS harness, and we will be cutting that in half, and using the wire sheathing and the cut wires for the other side of the connector which would be connected to everything on the motor.

the side with the DB 37 will remain completely IN-CAR.



the connector can be seen here, and is fully weather-proof, and is just a screw on plug. they cost roughly 4 dollars CDN for each side, with the pins coming it at 30 - 40 cents per.

the pin tool comes with the receptacle, and you need pins for both sides. IMHO, i think it's worth it.

[sparkandfuel.com]

hey thanks for reading all of that SnF.com!
we're running MSIv3.0, not MSII.
so i guess we could stick with that then, after reading your entire setup.

sounds like a solid plan.

so you think it's best to stick with the entire distributor setup that came with the engine? we will be removing the AFM, and probably be buying a sensor off you.

its deffinetly going to work, and it works well.

question: is fuel and spark controllable using the setup you've recommended?

i'd imagine it's only fuel, and the dizzy would handle spark. if i want to go the route where the MS handles spark, i'd have to do that entire grinding off of the opposing teeth, and then run the spark control through a coil pack which is controlled through MS, correct?

you wont need to grind any teeth, you can use the distributor as is and it will be completely controllable through the megasquirt, which uses the same signals your oem ecu would use and simply puts out megasquirt signals instead. so, you will have fully programmable spark and fuel control (: (hey, that sounds like a good name for a website- haha)(that's exactly how it happened too)

Grinding off teeth is for using a wheel decoder, but your setup won't require any of that if you keep the ignition as is. your NE signal will serve as a perfect tach-in signal (hall-optical, not VR- remember that when you are doing your jumper settings- your ignitor conditions the raw signal into a hall/optical signal), and IGT is your ignition signal out. its literally that easy.

For this conversation we're having right now, wheel decoder isn't relevant and may serve to just confuse. It's a great technology but I'll hold off on that topic until later just to make sure I dont throw you off the trail. we all know there can be a lot to digest around here, and theres no benefit in overwhelming anybody right off the bat.
If we were talking about wasted spark or coil-on-plug ignition, then the focus would be on wheel decoder.

am i totally out on a limb here? waiting for it to separate itself from the tree

worry not, you're in the right place to get all this sorted out. better yet- youre sorting it out before you have it all applied on the vehicle and have ran into a mystery problem. (bogus!)

[Careless]

hahahaha. intricate naming convention you got there

so since we have the 6 foot harness, it would be a better idea to look passed getting a receptacle for the ECU plug and just hardwire everything to the new harness, then to my our CPC connector that we're developing, huh? (for the reason that we want to clean the wiring up as much as possible and have the engine bay as easy to sort through as possible as well. no hackjobbing on this one. we will be soldering all the leads and whatnot)


our idea is to create a series of these cars or these systems so that once our dyno man tests them and tells us what he thinks of them, we can start providing them as alternatives to high-cost tuning applications for the people we do work for, as the car and people who are working on it are located in a hobbyists car shop, more so than a mechanics shop. this would be a fun learning experience, as i don't find wiring and electronics THAT daunting. it just takes a couple of re-reads, and so far your method seems to be the easiest/best.

so in terms of the power of the spark, compared to using an ignition system run off MSII, is it plenty powerful? on dori-kaze boards, theres a guy with a 20v silvertop that switched from EDIS to using the distributor as the decoder wheel because he said the sparks using that VB921 ignitor chip circuit provided a much more powerful setup than that of EDIS.

im wondering how the distributor spark is compared to the EDIS and the Decoder wheel setup, using MSII to drive coils.

[sparkandfuel.com]

the spark is the same between MS-I and MS-II, its all determined by what your coil has to offer. I have heared that the oem coil packs a bigger punch than edis, and the 4agze coilpacks really pack a whollapp.

wheel decoder also has zero to do with it, thats a different fuction and doesnt atually have anything to do directly with the spark firings. but direct fire from VB921('s) may force a larger spark vs using the oem ignitor. I dont honestly know.


MS-II does not support multiple coils currently, or wheel decoder. only MS-I with msns-e code will do that.

[Careless]

the spark is the same between MS-I and MS-II, its all determined by what your coil has to offer. I have heared that the oem coil packs a bigger punch than edis, and the 4agze coilpacks really pack a whollapp.

wheel decoder also has zero to do with it, thats a different fuction and doesnt atually have anything to do directly with the spark firings. but direct fire from VB921('s) may force a larger spark vs using the oem ignitor. I dont honestly know.


MS-II does not support multiple coils currently, or wheel decoder. only MS-I with msns-e code will do that.

sweet, you've been a great help.

we'll try our best to make a PDF writeup so that you may distribute it with your kits on your website.

PM me if you need anything.

[Careless]

hey what version of MSnSE are you running? or what is the recommended? if it's anything like firmware for routers, the latest is not always the greatest (:

[sparkandfuel.com]

Oh, jeez, I've been through every version of msns-e to date that was publicly released. wow, its been a bunch.
my tuner car has msns-e code version 024s13c on it currently, which is the current recommended stable release and works great for what we would be doing with it. I needed to verify some settings with a past customer (Hi Ben) so I just reflashed the firmware and went from there, just didnt bring it back to 029m yet. I think 029n was released today.


I know just what you mean about router firmware; the more, the not merrier. never going with dlink again, or bargain hunting either. now my router has more procesor than my web server computer. 266mhz with 64mb ram. (i think 64, maybe 32)
it could run megatune! haha. then again, maybe the next step should have been to just set up a real dhcp/router/domain server computer.

fortunetly, james and philip look to make IMPROVEMENTS to the msns-e code, not just patches, except lately since they're looking to finalize the stable release of 029xxxxxx. so they can move to the next generation.

[Careless]

'tis a shame you're located in illinois

anyways... are there any other documents or pages that you recommend i read that directly relate to this that you would find useful, rather than skipping through a bunch of pages that would jsut confuse me?



oh and i called my buddy with the car (im doing the electrical, so we're attacking different parts of the car, its easier for us to concentrate that way), and he said he's selling his entire 4AGZE wiring setup, the entire thing.

probably with the dizzy too.

but we have a 4AGE dizzy layin around. and we can rewire everything, as we were going for a clean setup anyways. is that possible to run the 4AGE dizzy instead, and how daunting would the wiring be?

im really anxious to get into the entire process of it (not to "get it working" asap, persay, because i know it will take time and patience). i just dont wanna start at a point where i forget everything that i've thought about after reading these posts. LOL. thats why i relay him all the info and asking so many questions.

but i applaud the patience you have to write it up whatever you feel like telling us.





oh, and internet connection sharing box will always be better than those damned routers you buy in stores. the process data faster, they sorta data faster, and they can be run in so many modes with so many features. for that same reason, people with a certain dLink router have been running linux on the router as firmware version, which allows them to add their own features and whatnot, because of the large memory size onboard in that particular model. further proving that haveing a PC that controls traffic is what everyone is striving for.


EDIT:

you COULD say that specific router is the modern day version of the MegaSquirt for Internet Connections.

[Careless]

[wickedslowAE86]

just to let you know, i've got almost the exact same setup. 4AGZE turboed AE86, the CPC on the firewall, MSnS-E. I'm running EDIS because my 4AGZE was DLI... which i will work on supporting properly at a later time. EDIS was the simplest thing, as i didn't have a distributor around, but now looking back i would have rather started with the distributor, and then worked on the DLI.
I have a base spark map donated by someone else... and i've done some tuning on the vacuum side... i haven't made it into boost yet, i can share with you what i've got if you like

[Careless]

hey thanks a bunch dude!

i have a friend that will be attempting 4AGE turbo via EDIS, purchased from the same guy that's building the 4AGZE (we're going supercharged now, sticking with the engines roots.... money is an issue at the moment, so we're making a compromise and forgoing turbo for this season, unless the switchover can be made in between events)

if you'd like to share info, feel free to post anything you want, like stuff i should be aware of before starting on these particular motors.