Spark Advance table for toyota

[lospeed]

i have done putting MS2 V3 pcb to my 4age engine. i have the wirings and configuring the MS2 except for the Advance ignition table


i'm really confused what value to be used in spark table
i dont know how far could i advance in my spark table.


i'm looking for sample table for the "Spark Advance table"
can anybody share to me their Spark Advance table setting?


please email it to ogipremix@gmail.com

[Jim]

Here is a Spark Advance Table ,
designed by Me specifically for your Toyota 4age engine .

It should be perfect the way it is , but YOU will have to make sure
that your settings in MegaTune are adjusted so that an
"Adjustable Timing Light" shows the same numbers as the Bin that is
Hi-Lited when looking at your Advance Table while the engine is running .

If you don't do this your Timing could still be Screwy .

Also , don't blame Me if you go out and blow up your engine ,
it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to learn how and why engines work .

If you hear rattling or tinkling sounds from your engine BACK OFF ,
then retard your Timing 2 degrees and try again .

Good Luck

...................Jim

[lospeed]

thanks a lot..

it is a big help for a newbie like me

[muythaibxr]

I don't think that table is "perfect"

for example, I know for sure that the 4age engine aside from maybe a 20v blacktop running at proper AFRs will probably be close to knocking at anything over 32 degrees of advance at full throttle.

Also, I don't see why you're going up and down with load, for example, at your 5000 rpm bin, you go from 20 degrees under vacuum to 38 and then back to 30, and in your rpm bins around that area at 4500 you're at 34, 5000 you're at 30, then you go back up again to 36-37?!? Even if it doesn't knock audibly (and I'm pretty sure it will unless he's using 93 octane) it'll probably be losing power due to too much advance.

[Jedrik]

That table (Jim's) looks much to advanced to me. I am not meaning to contradict Jim just pointing out that... your milage will vary!

Here is what I am runing, this should be conservitive since I tune at about 120 deg F MAT. But it is also on good 93 octane.
Above ~90 kpa I am about 1 deg retarded of ping.

I would sugjest you look at both maps and do some searches on the subject of detonation. Whatever you get will not be perfect for your engine, so you need to know what to do to fix it.

[Jim]

You can't learn anything with your mouth open .
Ask questions ,
don't believe three quarters of what you hear ,
and you may learn something , (or maybe not) .

The reasons for reducing advance in the lower right hand corner are :

The engine should never be operated at high RPM and light load ,
these are the conditions that put connecting rods through the block ,
by reducing the advance in this area the engine will tend to get out
of this area sooner , reducing stress on everything .

The engine should never see these conditions with a well educated driver ,
however , I have seen many people stomp the throttle and hold the engine there ,
right at Redline or Valve Float , with no load on the engine ,
this causes permanent damage even if the engine doesn't explode right away .

The reason for the change as RPM passes 4500 :

This engine , Toyota 4age , has variable valve timing ,
the Cam changes at about 4500 RPM ,
this causes an increase in cylinder pressure (and VE) when the Cam switches modes ,
this means the Advance needs to be backed off .
As the RPM increases to Redline the VE will start dropping again so
more Advance can be dialed in so the torque doesn't drop off so fast .

The reason for the increase in timing approaching 4500 RPM :
the VVT has the Cam in "Low RPM Mode" so the VE starts dropping
much earlier than Redline , that is the torque peak has been moved
way down in the RPM range .
Since the VE goes down the Advance should go up .

If the VVT system is not powered it defaults to "High RPM Mode" ,
this reduces cylinder pressure (and VE) quite a bit below 3000 RPM ,
If you are new to MS it's not very likely that you have it hooked up and working .
And this Table is somewhat conservative in the low RPM ranges with no VVT control .
If you are smart enough to get VVT control working ,
you are probably smart enough to figure out how to rework your Advance Table .

600 , 800 , and 1000 RPM ranges :
You will notice things look a little strange here ,
I'm not going to tell you why , you will have to guess .

This Table may well be too Advanced overall , did you read the warnings ?
An easy Table Transform will put it were it needs to be .


...................Jim

[muythaibxr]

The reasons for reducing advance in the lower right hand corner are :

The engine should never be operated at high RPM and light load ,
these are the conditions that put connecting rods through the block ,
by reducing the advance in this area the engine will tend to get out
of this area sooner , reducing stress on everything .

I disagree, I can think of plenty of reasons for being in that part of the table, mainly from 5000-7500 rpms (7500 rpms is the redline on a 16v 4age). The main reason would be controlling oversteer/understeer in hard cornering while trying to stay in the powerband.

The reason for the change as RPM passes 4500 :

This engine , Toyota 4age , has variable valve timing ,

Actually, it only has VVT if it's a silver-top or black-top 20 valve 4age. The original poster doesn't say one way or the other so the assumption shouldn't be made.

the Cam changes at about 4500 RPM ,
this causes an increase in cylinder pressure (and VE) when the Cam switches modes ,
this means the Advance needs to be backed off .
As the RPM increases to Redline the VE will start dropping again so
more Advance can be dialed in so the torque doesn't drop off so fast .

I *might* be able to buy that, except nobody's table I've ever seen for a silver-top or black-top engine does this. Most just hit max advance around 4000-5000 rpms, and stay there to the redline. I do this on my silvertop 20v, and I don't have problems with torque dropping off. I believe the people who have the most experience tuning this engine generally follow the same formula I did for timing. In fact, the weirdest table I've ever seen for anyone who actually HAS this engine drops the advance from 32 to 30 degrees at 7000 rpms.

If the VVT system is not powered it defaults to "High RPM Mode" ,
this reduces cylinder pressure (and VE) quite a bit below 3000 RPM ,
If you are new to MS it's not very likely that you have it hooked up and working .
And this Table is somewhat conservative in the low RPM ranges with no VVT control .
If you are smart enough to get VVT control working ,
you are probably smart enough to figure out how to rework your Advance Table .

Also incorrect. If VVT is not powered, it's in low-rpm mode. Powering it up allows oil pressure into the cam gear assembly, changing the cam timing to high-rpm mode. The only way I could see you saying this is if you were saying it's the same mode it's in above 7000 rpms, in which case what you say is a bit misleading... You may be confused with T-VIS (what the blue-top and the non-high-compression red-tops had) which when not powered, doesn't allow vacuum into the vacuum diaphragm that shuts the butterflies in half the intake runners. So It's powered on in the opposite manner from VVT. VVT is powered on from 4400-7000 rpms, where T-VIS's vacuum solenoid is powered on from just above crank to 4450 rpms.

From what I can tell, toyota only shuts off VVT above 7000 rpms to get people to shift gears since with VVT on at revs that high, the engine is still putting out enough power that people will not want to shift. Since the engine is a non-interferance engine, and VVT doesn't change valve lift, I doubt they do it to avoid the valves hitting the pistons in the case of over-revving. Low rpm mode has zero overlap which helps emissions, and helps torque at low revs.

And I do have VVT hooked up and working on my 20v silver-top 4age.

This Table may well be too Advanced overall , did you read the warnings ?
An easy Table Transform will put it were it needs to be .

Giving a total newbie a table that is this far advanced on an engine when you're not even sure which version of the engine it is (and as I said before, I'd be very surprised if this table doesn't cause knock at higher revs and high load), and then saying "this table is perfect, but it might knock" seems just plain irresponsible to me.

Ken

[snillet]

Jim:s table is pointing in a direction that i´ve seen elsewhere on basic ignition maps so he could be on to something.... with our without the valve timing, i´ve seen maps doned that way before but mostly on very high spec engines in tweaked up cars NA.

That doesn´t mean i can explain WHY though , so dont shoot med

[Jim]

Thanks for pointing out something positive Snillett .

Hey , muythaibxr , where's YOUR "perfect" Table ?

Are you just going to try to Nit-pick at mine because you don't understand it ?

Why don't you do someting constructive , like maybe help somebody .

Or are you too busy calling us all idiots .

I disagree, I can think of plenty of reasons for being in that part of the table, mainly from 5000-7500 rpms (7500 rpms is the redline on a 16v 4age). The main reason would be controlling oversteer/understeer in hard cornering while trying to stay in the powerband.

Do you really think he's building a Race Car ?

Actually, it only has VVT if it's a silver-top or black-top 20 valve 4age. The original poster doesn't say one way or the other so the assumption shouldn't be made.

So what would you do without that information ?

I *might* be able to buy that, except nobody's table I've ever seen for a silver-top or black-top engine does this. Most just hit max advance around 4000-5000 rpms, and stay there to the redline. I do this on my silvertop 20v, and I don't have problems with torque dropping off. I believe the people who have the most experience tuning this engine generally follow the same formula I did for timing. In fact, the weirdest table I've ever seen for anyone who actually HAS this engine drops the advance from 32 to 30 degrees at 7000 rpms.

Are you saying that you have a "Flat" torque curve and the same
VE numbers from 4000 to 7500 RPM ?
d***!!! who needs 12 VE Bins , your car could run on 3 maybe even 2 !!!

If VVT is not powered, it's in low-rpm mode. Powering it up allows oil pressure into the cam gear assembly, changing the cam timing to high-rpm mode.

There are at least 3 people explaining how VVT works in various forums
that say the opposite is true ,
I guess we need a shop manual before we can go any further .
He's just gonna have to wait until we get this figured out for sure .

Giving a total newbie a table that is this far advanced on an engine when you're not even sure which version of the engine it is (and as I said before, I'd be very surprised if this table doesn't cause knock at higher revs and high load), and then saying "this table is perfect, but it might knock" seems just plain irresponsible to me.

I guess he'll just have to sell his car and take the Bus to work .

LoSpeed , I owe you my sincerest apology for putting you and your engine in such danger ,
will you forgive me ? Please?


...................Jim

[jsmcortina]

I guess he'll just have to sell his car and take the Bus to work . :(

LoSpeed , I owe you my sincerest apology for putting you and your engine in such danger ,
will you forgive me ? :oops: Please?

I thought that table was weird too and is nothing like the "rule of thumb" posting that Lance made which should be a good starting point for newbies. I would always advise someone to start off retarded and let _them_ push it further if they feel safe.
The base pre-installed spark tables in MS1/Extra or MS2 are safe (lame) starting points.

I don't think muythaibxr said he had a perfect table? He does run a similar engine so likely knows more than we do on the subject. We can surely all agree that running over advanced under full load is a bad idea and likely to end in tears.

On my old design V8 I run up to 36deg, but a decent design newer engine will need lots less advance.

regards

James

[muythaibxr]

Thanks for pointing out something positive Snillett .

Hey , muythaibxr , where's YOUR "perfect" Table ?

I never said my table was perfect. In fact I know it isn't because I'm not finished tuning, but the point was again that you're giving a table to a newbie without even knowing which variation of the 4age engine he has, and that *does* matter as far as advance goes. I didn't post my table because I don't know which version of the 4age he has. My table might cause him knock if he's got an early 16v T-VIS 4age.

Are you just going to try to Nit-pick at mine because you don't understand it ?

I didn't say I don't understand, I'm just saying it's a *very* odd table, and certainly not newbie-safe.

Why don't you do someting constructive , like maybe help somebody .

I am doing something constructive. I'm trying to make sure that this guy doesn't run a table that I'm pretty sure will hurt his engine. I HAVE this engine, and I know several others who do as well, and unless he's running a 20v black-top 4age, he *will* get knock. Also, I've done many other "helpful" things on this forum and others having to do with the Megasquirt. (check out the Megasquirt section over at www.rx7club.com, or check out the several pieces of code that I've written that are in msns-extra, or you could wait for ms2/extra to come out, which James and I are working on).

Or are you too busy calling us all idiots .

I never called you an idiot. I said that you shouldn't give tables with that much advance to newbies. I also wasn't talking to anyone else here...

Do you really think he's building a Race Car ?

Does it matter? You wanted reasons why people would drive in that part of the map, and I gave you one.

So what would you do without that information ?

Not having that info, I'd give him a much safer table with much less advance.

Are you saying that you have a "Flat" torque curve and the same
VE numbers from 4000 to 7500 RPM ?
d***!!! who needs 12 VE Bins , your car could run on 3 maybe even 2 !!!

No, I'm not saying that, that's obviously bunk. What I am saying is that I've seen tons of installs of this engine, and none of them have an ignition table like the one you posted. Again, I'm not saying that VE doesn't affect timing, but your table flys in the face of most other well-tuned ignition tables that I've seen, even for this engine.

There are at least 3 people explaining how VVT works in various forums
that say the opposite is true ,
I guess we need a shop manual before we can go any further .
He's just gonna have to wait until we get this figured out for sure .

I doubt that very seriously. Here's a cut 'n pasted snippet from the person who most people consider *the* authority on this engine:

(from http://www.billzilla.org/vvtvtec.htm )

"The early VVT system was relatively simple, ie, at a specific rpm (~4400rpm on the 20 valve 4AGE's) the computer signals the OCV (NOTE: that's the oil control valve) to open, this lets oil pressure go through a special gallery in the #1 inlet cam bearing, through the centre of the inlet cam to the VVT pulley. There's a small piston in the VVT pulley, and once it gets enough pressure behind it, it starts to move outwards, causing the outer part of the pulley to turn in relation to the inner part, due to the helical spline that guides the piston's fore & aft movement."

so it's *exactly* what I said.

Also, that was only on the earlier 20v's. On later ones, it wasn't done by rpm alone, but instead it used a PWM solenoid which let varying amounts of oil pressure into the intake cam gear, allowing full control between the two extremes of valve timing. It did this based on many factors, Including rpm, load, and throttle position. That's what VVT-i is. VVTL-i takes that one step further still, and adds two cam profiles, one for lower revs, and one for higher revs. The high rev cam-profile is engaged at a specific RPM (around 6000 on the 2zz-ge engine) which increases lift and duration. No 4age engine came with VVTL-i.

Anyway, I'm not trying to start a flame-war, I'm only saying that the table you posted as *perfect* is in fact not perfect for a newbie. I understand what you were trying to do with that table, etc... but again, it's not perfect for a newbie, it's the type of table I might believe after using EGT or even ion-sensing analysis to tune ignition right to the edge, or at least a knock sensor. A good newbie-safe table without knowing the exact variation of his engine should follow the guidelines in the sticky at the top of this section of the forum.

[Jim]

To : muythaibxr

I'm not interested in a "Flame War" either ,

but you don't seem to be getting the point of these Forums , HELP .

This guy , the guy we are supposed to be "helping" , admittedly doesn't know
what he is doing , and he's desperately begging for help .

His post just sat there , for over a week , with no responce ,
he's having a hard way to go , he wants his car to run really bad ,
and all you have been doing is Nit Picking at my efforts to help him .

Now think about it , what's wrong with this picture ?

Is there some unwritten rule , that I'm not aware of , that says that you must
NEVER provide any help to someone who "obviously" doesn't know what he's doing ?

Of course he's likely to trash his engine ,
it probably happens 50 times a day somewhere around the world ,
I have personally trashed 3 engines myself when I was a dumass teenager ,
that doesn't mean that you shouldn't do what you can to
help someone because you might not have the perfect solution .

You didn't learn all that you know without breaking a few things first and
then getting some help , so why aren't you helping in return ?

Do you understand what I'm saying here ?

I thought you would get the idea from my EXTREME sarcasm in this tread ,
(and I apologize to everyone else for that) .

The point is , criticism of the efforts of others is not help ,
it's just trying to make yourself right , at the expense of others .

The purpose of these Forums is help , not proving who is wrong .

I sincerely hope that this gives you a new point of view for your consideration .

...................Jim

[muythaibxr]

I wasn't trying to criticize, I was trying to help as well. I don't want a newbie hurting his engine.

It's likely that nobody responded to his thread because if he follows the guidelines in the "rules of thumb" thread in this section of the forum, he'll be fine for that engine, and then can up the advance numbers as he begins to understand what he's doing.

My point wasn't who's wrong or right, it was that your "help" was very likely to hurt his engine, and I wanted to point that out before he went and tried it.

I have actually never broken anything I've megasquirted. I avoided breaking it by reading, reading some more, and re-reading, and doing the research for my particular engine.

You say he's likely to trash his engine, but it doesn't have to be that way, and we certainly shouldn't help him trash it by giving him a table that will probably cause knock.

I help people very often on this forum... and I agree that the point is to help, and that's exactly what I was trying to do.

One point of this forum, and of the Megasquirt project as a whole is to help people learn how engines and EFI systems work. If you just give a newbie a table and say go for it:

1) It had better be a safe table.
2) you should explain why you did what you did or point him to a place where he can find the reasons.

In my opinion it is better to point him to a place where he can read and learn for himself how to build a good table than it is to just give him a table and say go for it.

Ken

[whittlebeast]

Jim

Please be careful using words like perfect when on this forum. Strange things hapen from motor to motor. The factorys use million dollar dynos and many hours of torture testing of new setups and still have to self teaching fuel tables based on O2 feedback and the same on the ignition side for spark based on knock. I have a STOCK Ford Lightning that had the heads UPDATED the motor needed 5 degrees less timing. Could have been a fuel change. plug requirements...Who knows? The point is Perfect on one motor may be a desastor on the next. Like Ken said, we hate to advise someone into a blown motor.

Note that the code has some trouble keeping up on a fast accelerating motor and you may be covering one problem by creating some other issue. Its like people telling me what the issues will be injecting a two stroke based on knowledge gained by carburating a v8. Some things carry over but most do not.

AW

[Jim]

Hey guys ,

I am completely aware of , and absolutely agree with , 99% of what you are saying .

Here is where we differ ,

You can not stop people from doing dumb dangerous things ,

It's just a fact of life .

I can guarantee you that eventually this guy is going to put some kind of
Advance Table , anything with numbers on it , into his MS and drive his car .

He might as well be given something that is close to the right shape to begin with ,
and a stern warning , did you guys miss the stern warning part ?

"but YOU will have to make sure ".............. ,

Also , don't blame Me if you go out and blow up your engine ,
it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to learn how and why engines work .

If you hear rattling or tinkling sounds from your engine BACK OFF ,
then retard your Timing 2 degrees and try again .

You can of course say ,

Hey , it's not MY fault he blew up his engine !! , I didn't have anything to do with it !! , Not Me !! ,

and do nothing , just let the guy flounder in his own lack of experience .

Have some compassion guys , not every body can be a genius , you
guys probably spent 20 years getting the experience that you have ,
go ahead and share it .

Some people are going to make a complete mess out of anything that you do for them ,
that is not your responsibility ,
don't take responsibility for what this small percentage of people do ,
if you do , you will drive yourself crazy ,
and end up denying the rest of the world the benifit of your experience ,
that would be a loss for everyone .

...................Jim

[jsmcortina]

I can guarantee you that eventually this guy is going to put some kind of
Advance Table , anything with numbers on it , into his MS and drive his car .

He might as well be given something that is close to the right shape to begin with ,
and a stern warning , did you guys miss the stern warning part ?

MS1/Extra and MS2 both come with advance tables built in that are safe to run with. Using either of those tables is likely a safer starting point.

James

[Jedrik]

James,

The standard advance table I see runs up 38 deg. at full throtle.
I am guessing it is designed for a large displacement, inefficient old fashoned chamber. Perhaps a 2 valve chevy or Ford?
I get detonation at about 27 degrees at 101 kpa.
That kind of advance would probably melt my 4age in very short time!

I honestly dont know how any version of the 4age, TVIS, VVT or whatever could run that much advance (at power). It seems counterintuitive for a modern combustion chamber design...

[jsmcortina]

James,

The standard advance table I see runs up 38 deg. at full throtle.

Which code is this?

James

[jsmcortina]

Yes, the default spark table in MS2 goes up to 36 deg at full load. This needs changing to something more safe like 30 or less.

James

[Jedrik]

When I first got my Megasquirted engine running I went for about a week before realising it was too advanced and pinging. Many people can probably relate... when you first get the engine running it is pretty exciting and there is a lot going on. If you did much modification there are probably new engine noises, your watching the oil pressure and focussing on the VE bins. It is easy to miss the sound of pinging in the excitement. It is a rather subtle noise and I expect as your high frequincy hearing degrades (from being around jet engines, rock and rool, and angle head grinders) may be very hard to detect. Personaly I only hear it when I am actually listening for it. So I force myself to focus on that.
But if you start easy you should have no problem surviving a little excesive advance.
The way I set up my first spark table was to start with the stock table.
I noticed ping rattle at about 50% throttle so backed off 5 degrees.
It still rattled (I say rattled becasue to me detonation sounds like a large washer ratttling on a bolt) so I backed off another 5 deg. This was good to about 100 kpa but I noticed down below 2500 rpm is was still pingging for a moment as the engine accelerated so I backed off a few more deg. at low RPM.
I had to back off about 4 degrees more as I went up to full boost. (I have limited to 6psi on my 20 year old engine).
All was good and I put the advance issue out of my mind untill a few weeks later I switched from 76 Gas to Chevron (both 92 octane) With the chevron I had to retard another 1.5 degrees at max boost.
I could go on. The point is with Megasquirt you are the engineer and test pilot and fabricator. It is important to keep you head up, use all your senses and just take it slow. Oh, and don't forget not to run into anything!