Found this stock timing map for my BMW engine

Jon k · Post by **Jon k** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:11 pm

This, I think, is the stock timing map for my BMW M50 2.5L engine. The engine is NA by default but mine is supercharged. Does this look like an actual map? If so, what do people suggest I do to make it boost friendly(er).

mops · Post by **mops** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:23 pm

what software do you use to read those maps ?

bimmersquirt · Post by **bimmersquirt** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:00 am

I'd suggest pulling 2 degrees per psi of boost Jon, you'll have to be a bit careful on the M50 as its fairly low adv to start with but certainly with regular pump gas, I'd pull a few degrees everywhere off idle to start with until you see what boost comes in where, should be linear with the SC, possibly spike as the S/C goes to peak efficiency.

Software looks to be HHD or WinOLS from the screen shots.

Mops, you nee M20 stock map ?

mops · Post by **mops** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:53 pm

i have several m20 stock ignition maps.

i presume because seom are for m20b20, then m20 eta motor, and then even m20b25 were 2 version of it, earlier wiht high compression and later with lower compression and slightly bigger ports...

but yeach, if you got any m20 related material then definitely I'm very keen. Pm me and i'll let you know my email addy , so you can send it there.

here can i obtain that software to read those chips ? is it a free one or highly specialized industrial software ?

Jon k · Post by **Jon k** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:37 pm

bimmersquirt wrote:I'd suggest pulling 2 degrees per psi of boost Jon, you'll have to be a bit careful on the M50 as its fairly low adv to start with but certainly with regular pump gas, I'd pull a few degrees everywhere off idle to start with until you see what boost comes in where, should be linear with the SC, possibly spike as the S/C goes to peak efficiency.

Software looks to be HHD or WinOLS from the screen shots.

Mops, you nee M20 stock map ?

Supercharger is out - I am not trying to run it standalone NA. Once I get that going I am going to put my Holset H1E in.

So like, what do those load values on the x axis at top signify? Anyway we can make that table fit into MS?

johnc32779 · Post by **johnc32779** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:14 pm

So like, what do those load values on the x axis at top signify? Anyway we can make that table fit into MS?

Perhaps the following two links might provide some insight:

http://home.comcast.net/~russelc/dme/dmetune.htm

http://www.atlantisconsultingllc.com/at ... c%20Editor

mops · Post by **mops** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:12 pm

yeach, i seen that link, problem is that motronic editor is no longer available for free download.... even a demo version.

johnc32779 · Post by **johnc32779** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:27 pm

The Motronic editor is indeed available for download.

On the page titled "Motronic Editor" scroll down to the screenshot, then click on the screenshot. You should arrive at a page title "Download Motronic Editor". Scroll down to the bottom of this page and click "Yes Download Motronic Editor".

mops · Post by **mops** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:39 pm

oh, ok, i see.

i have a bmw, so it can open by chip, but because i dont know what offsets to use, so i basically cant read any usefull... information

nfn15037 · Post by **nfn15037** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:55 pm

First off, I think those timing tables are for an M50, not an M20 (as it says 'E36' in the titlebar of that window). Load is in litres per minute as calculated by the MAF sensor. The higher l/min, the more load. The problem is, you will are using a MAP sensor to measure load with a MS (speed/density rather than mass airflow based like Motronic is) so the load scales don't really translate. You can, however, look at min and max load, then use MAP sensor KPA values to sort of get an idea of the load scale in the table. It will still need to be cleaned up on a good dyno though and remember to pull timing in boost and start conservative!

Jon k · Post by **Jon k** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:18 pm

nfn15037 wrote:First off, I think those timing tables are for an M50, not an M20 (as it says 'E36' in the titlebar of that window). Load is in litres per minute as calculated by the MAF sensor. The higher l/min, the more load. The problem is, you will are using a MAP sensor to measure load with a MS (speed/density rather than mass airflow based like Motronic is) so the load scales don't really translate. You can, however, look at min and max load, then use MAP sensor KPA values to sort of get an idea of the load scale in the table. It will still need to be cleaned up on a good dyno though and remember to pull timing in boost and start conservative!

this is for an M50 you're correct. I think I will try to do that - set the timing at min load (what would that be? idle kpa?) and max load (100 kpa) and pull a couple degrees at max to be safe. Then gradually clean it up. I am more concerned with getting the M50 ignition system to work properly with MS... I wish I could figure out if my #'s are even correct.

mops · Post by **mops** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:30 pm

thats right.. m50 ignition system... i was thinking about that aswell....

would eids module control m50's COP's ? in wasted spark ?

Jon k · Post by **Jon k** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:38 pm

mops wrote:thats right.. m50 ignition system... i was thinking about that aswell....

would eids module control m50's COP's ? in wasted spark ?

Not sure but I don't want to use EDIS as I want full tuning ability. I built the circuit with 6 VB921s for wasted spark... not sure it's working with the coils yet - it fires LEDs tho... but that's not saying much.

Was thinking about using a GM 3 coil tower until I can perfect the COP WS

nfn15037 · Post by **nfn15037** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:31 am

Jon k wrote: this is for an M50 you're correct. I think I will try to do that - set the timing at min load (what would that be? idle kpa?) and max load (100 kpa) and pull a couple degrees at max to be safe. Then gradually clean it up. I am more concerned with getting the M50 ignition system to work properly with MS... I wish I could figure out if my #'s are even correct.

See the group is 9.75* timing values? This seems like the idle region to me. Max load for a stock motor most likley isn't all the way at the end of the load range for the stock MAF sensor, but it is close. Those look like realistic values for an M50, but remember BMW uses 2x knock sensors on the block as an ignition timing strategy.

Your best bet is going to get the car drivable, then go build your own ignition map on a loading dyno with real-time torque readouts.

Jon k · Post by **Jon k** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:49 pm

nfn15037 wrote:
Jon k wrote: this is for an M50 you're correct. I think I will try to do that - set the timing at min load (what would that be? idle kpa?) and max load (100 kpa) and pull a couple degrees at max to be safe. Then gradually clean it up. I am more concerned with getting the M50 ignition system to work properly with MS... I wish I could figure out if my #'s are even correct.
See the group is 9.75* timing values? This seems like the idle region to me. Max load for a stock motor most likley isn't all the way at the end of the load range for the stock MAF sensor, but it is close. Those look like realistic values for an M50, but remember BMW uses 2x knock sensors on the block as an ignition timing strategy.

Your best bet is going to get the car drivable, then go build your own ignition map on a loading dyno with real-time torque readouts.

Non vanos has no knock sensors... but its also 10.0:1 instead of 10.5:1 so that helps. I will have to mess around I guess.