Getting frustrated trying to Tune- 5.0 twin turbo megasquirt

timmyturbo · Post by **timmyturbo** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:59 am

Please, let me start out by saying that I consider myself to be fairly intelligent, and didn't just 'slap this together', I've been researching Megasquirt for the last 3 months, at least. I have searched, this board, the corral, etc. so please don't tell me to search.. Thanks!!

My setup: freshly rebuilt 302, stock, with FelPro 93333-PT1 headgaskets with ARP head bolts, 42 lb injectors, FPR set at 35 PSI without vacuum, twin T3 .63/.60 turbos with internal wastegates set to their stock levels, DSM BOV, and timing set at 8deg without the shunt. I have a Megasquirt 1 version 2 and LM-1 Wideband 02 sensor for engine control. The Megasquirt is running fuel only at this point. I am using my stock ford ignition for now.

My issue: I have gotten the car to start, and run a little up and down the road (this is after I popped both HG's earlier in the month) but it shudders. It idles great, but isn't really drivable. I have the Megatune software, as well as MSTweak3000, which I get a javascript error when I fire up.
I have gotten the constants in Megasquirt set to where my research and the megamanual has directed me, but I guess you're not supposed to use the VE Table generator for a turbocharged application, since it's a non-linear curve when under boost. That makes sense to me. I have read the section on tuning with Megasquirt and setting the VE tables for a turbocharged application, but for some reason the more I read it the more confused I become. I have tried the online version, but after I enter my values the entire generated VE table consists of 'NaN' values. I am really getting frustrated. I want to drive and enjoy my car, but don't want to blow anything up. I want to do this right, but I just can't figure this out! Can someone give me some ideas as to what I'm doing wrong, or maybe a set of clearer tuning directions? I know this has been done before by others. I KNOW I can figure this out. I know I can tune this, and I'm not giving up, I'm just asking for some help. Can anyone give me some assistance please? huh Thanks in advance for any help!!!

whittlebeast · Post by **whittlebeast** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:13 am

First bump your FP up to 43psi with the referance line off and then hook up the vacuume line up to the FPR that is seeing the same pressure in the intake as the injectors are seeing.

Next see the "Please note in your post if you are using MS-II/MS-I/MSnS-E, the code version, MegaTune version, as well as V1.01, V2.2 or V3 main board, etc." in red pring acdross the top of your screen.

Then start the datelogging, start the motor in the driveway and let it come up to temp. Go drive it around the block a few laps (drive very easy at this point) and save the datalog. Next post the log here with any general observations that you my have about the way it drives.

This early in the tuning process is lots easier if you also post your MSQ.

AW

timmyturbo · Post by **timmyturbo** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:20 am

whittlebeast wrote: Next see the "Please note in your post if you are using MS-II/MS-I/MSnS-E, the code version, MegaTune version, as well as V1.01, V2.2 or V3 main board, etc." in red pring acdross the top of your screen.

Then start the datelogging, start the motor in the driveway and let it come up to temp. Go drive it around the block a few laps (drive very easy at this point) and save the datalog. Next post the log here with any general observations that you my have about the way it drives.

This early in the tuning process is lots easier if you also post your MSQ.

AW

Ok, it looks like the only thing I'm missing from the data requested is code version and megatune version. Sorry, I'm new here.

So, MS-1 V.2.2.
I'm running the code from B&G, untouched. The Megatune is the newest version (2.25) that I just reinstalled yesterday (I wanted to start over.)
I actually do have some datalogs, but of course, I left them on my other computer. I will get some new ones tonight.

whittlebeast · Post by **whittlebeast** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:22 am

Is the VE table an 8X8 table with 8 rpm cells and 8 map cells for 8*8=64 VE cells?

AW

timmyturbo · Post by **timmyturbo** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:24 am

yes that's the one.

whittlebeast · Post by **whittlebeast** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:49 am

May I advise early on to upgrade to either a late version of the Extra code or to MS2. Both these codes are far more advanced and adjustable that the code you are tring to bring up. You will have far less trouble in the long run. Both versions have advantages over each other. You may want to post a new thread giving your ignition setup description and see what everyone thinks would be the quickest to set up.

AW

timmyturbo · Post by **timmyturbo** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:55 am

So if I upgrade my embedded code to say, v. 3.0 with fan control (which is something I was looking for also BTW) I'd be better off?

whittlebeast · Post by **whittlebeast** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:04 am

You may be a little confused at this point. v3 normally refers to the latest "mother board" of the system. The 2.2 board you have now will support Extra code right now or with the install of a $75+/- chip you can run the latest high resolution MS2 code where most of the latest thought and development is going. Keep reading on the other sections of this forum.

AW

P.S. don't worry about the fan control at this point. That is better controled by a simple temp switch in a water hose. Concentrate on a good clean set of signals from ALL of the sensors and getting the fuel map close.

timmyturbo · Post by **timmyturbo** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:09 am

I was looking at the downloads section, and they have V. 2.9 and v. 3 code upgrade like this here:

http://www.msefi.com/dload.php?action=file&file_id=167

http://www.msefi.com/dload.php?action=file&file_id=66

I know that I have the V.1 motherboard, just trying to do the embedded code.[/url]

Post by **jsmcortina** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:14 am

Unusually I might disagree with Andy on this one. The Extra code (which I'm a big part of) offers lots of advantages, but the code you presently have offers simplicity. It _may_ be better to stick with that and get a working 8x8 fuel table without the vast array of menus to get lost in. Once you've at least got the car driveable you can upgrade to the other firmware and enable fan control etc. etc. But you'll have a working setup to fall back on and a VE table to import.

I do agree that you need to set the FPR to 43.5psi and to be vacuum/boost referenced or your car will be more difficult to tune.

Have you downloaded the log viewer programmes? You need to.
I orginally used the MSLVV with lots of success and am now using the Megalogviewer as it is more configurable.

Do a datalog of a drive down the road and apply the throttle gently until you get into the shudder. Stop the car and review the datalog.

Look at the reported AFR from your wideband and tune the VE table in the relevant area - the log will tell you what kpa and rpm you were at.

Even better would be to get a co-driver and tune while driving. With the AFR gauge on screen you can see if you are getting lean areas and bump up the fuel as you go along.

James

whittlebeast · Post by **whittlebeast** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:40 am

James

8x8 on twin turbos? Realy?

AW

ChevelleFan · Post by **ChevelleFan** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:45 am

From my own experience, I would agree with James. Get it running on B&G code first since you're just doing fuel-only. You should certainly be able to get the car to the point where it is drivable. If you later upgrade to the Extra code or MS2, you can import your 8x8 table from MS-I. That's what I did to get my car running at first -- rough tuned in MS-I, imported my VE into MS-II and did more fine-tuning there.

I would also second the advice of getting a friend to drive. This will let you focus on the computer and you'll have an easier time trying to correlate what you're feeling in the car with what you see happening on the screen.
It's hard (and dangerous!) trying to read a computer screen while you're driving.

If you're having trouble with MSTweak, try posting a log over in the MSTweak forum. There is a guy named FixItAgainTony who has played with MSTweak a lot recently and can probably help you out. Or send him a PM.

You've gotten most of the hard part done -- the car starts and idles. You're not far.

-Dave

Post by **jsmcortina** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:54 am

whittlebeast wrote:James

8x8 on twin turbos? Realy?

AW

To get a base tune yes. Of course I'd advocate using the 12x12 of MS1/Extra and depending on the boost the hires of MS2 could help too. However I'm sure the car can be made very driveable with the base MS1 code once the VE table is sorted.

James

mops · Post by **mops** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:43 pm

whatever the code just rake it easy. drive slowly, SLOW throttle movements and dont even think about making any boost yet. that will just wreck your engine.

veryfy that lc-1 and MS afr reading are the same.

for now just try to tune low rpm/low map areas to about 14.7:1

with 8x8 table you should have it roughly going in about 15 minutes.

timmyturbo · Post by **timmyturbo** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:48 pm

Hey guys,
I don't know if you read this in the evenings or not, but here's a few datalogs. The first one is of me driving the car around the block before really dialing in my VE table..
The second is just the car idling in my garage, from warmup on. I just started the car and let it idle after entering a generated VE table from the Megatune website (I tried the VE table generator again this evening and it worked- so I imported it just before this idle session) I don't know if this help at all, but I thought I'd throw it out there. .

timmyturbo · Post by **timmyturbo** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:06 pm

Hey, anyone had a chance to check out the my datalogs?

FoundSoul · Post by **FoundSoul** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:47 pm

Looks like it needs the VE table worked on quite a bit if I can trust the o2 input in that datalog. In the idle log it was idling rich, in the 'first try' it was lean almost everywhere.

If the idle log was the second one taken you're doing a bit better getting it idling at least on the safe side. You should be able to idle at around 13.5-14:1 and get the lowest kpa somewhere in that range.

mops · Post by **mops** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:11 pm

howdy.
ok, first thing I see in your datalogs is that your rpm pickup has spikes - usually happens over 2k rpm and spikes to 4400rpm. you need to adress that issue before you go any further.

my feeling is that ve table needs working on....

Post by **jsmcortina** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:25 pm

Another thought. If the FPR is not vac/boost referenced then the generated VE table will be a mile off. All the MS default tables assume a referenced FPR.

James

timmyturbo · Post by **timmyturbo** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 5:19 am

Ok, thanks for the suggestions. I will research the RPM pickup issue and see if I can resolve.
the FPR is boost/vac referenced- I'm pulling it off the intake manifold directly. Yeah, I figured that VE table needed some love. I had to adjust 3 of the bins just to get it idling again. I'm starting to see the light here.

Megasquirt Support Forum (MSEXTRA)

Getting frustrated trying to Tune- 5.0 twin turbo megasquirt

Getting frustrated trying to Tune- 5.0 twin turbo megasquirt

Datalogs and VE table added