balancing timing and fueling...

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superelbert
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balancing timing and fueling...

Post by superelbert »

Got my '71 Dodge Dart 318 up and running with a OK baselione fuel and ignition map.

Got most of the stoiciometric mapping done on the O2 sensor, and the ignition map is probably pretty close to standard factory set up except for an idle advance of 19-20 deg.

So what remains to be done is high-power tuning and economy tuning in the "cruise" areas.

For full power tuning I'm probably gonna fork out for some rolling road time if i can find one with a skilled and experienced tuner/operator, just to risky trying to do this on the road.

anyway, economy tuning at cruise is a different matter, and I've been playing around a bit now, managing to pinch down guite a bit here and there.

Cruising on 2500-3000rpma and 25-35 kpa, I managed to reduce fueling quite a lot without detecting any missfires as such.
But then again, i suspect that high RPM missifre will not be as audible as on lower rpm's unless it is very severe..

What I did notice was that at some point the engine started sounding a bit hollow more "Whuuuuu" than "wrrrrrrrrr" sort of . Response was allso down and power seemed to have faded. It allso looked like the coolant temp did rise a bit.

Obviously I went quite lean at this point. mid 40's and lower on VE.

can a lean cruise condition like this be rectified by advancing the ignition at this point, or have i leaned down way to far when the described symptomes occur?

How do you really notice when you have gone as far as you can with leaning down and advancing ignition??

never done this before, so some input and comments from those of you with experience would be great! :)
mops
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Post by mops »

only dyno can tell... youy lean it out, then advance ignition then try to lean it out again....

on the dyno you will see... you keep advancing spark and at some stage it will start loosing power. if might regain some boiwer by further enleaning and then again try to advance few degrees...

it's kinda hard to do it exacly on the road. you sort of do it by feel... i dont tune to the very edge of misfires, i always leave some lee-way to account for changing conditions, etc. aswell if you tune it to the edge of misfiers than you will be very dependent on perfectly tuned accelenrich.
BMW, 1985, E30, 325i, 2-door, 5spd. Lots of custom work. Turbo build in progress: http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55733
superelbert
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The budget...

Post by superelbert »

At the hobby level I'm working, I can't really justify the costs and the effort required to pull the engine for dyno-tuning, so I have no choice to but to make do with the bum-dyno (seat-of -pants).. :D

But I've been thinking....

After a good bit of reading up, I've come to the understanding that the leaner you go, the slower the burn, hence more advance as to make the pressure peak appear at the optimum time after TDC.

Following this, I will asume that a leaned out charge with unchanged ignition timing will be burning longer after tdc, hence the exhaust gasses must be warmer as the exhaust valve opens, both as a result of the time delay but allso due to reduced thermal efficiency.

From this assumption, I reason that if I use an exhaust gas temperature gauge, I can lean out untill I notice an increase in exhaust temperature, and then try to ad some more advance and see if this reduces the exhaust temperature.

If this is successfull, I can then try and lean out a bit more, and advance accordingly over again, untill at some point I run in to missfiring or exhaust temperatures that can't be brought back down through ignition advance.

Of course, this will ONLY be for tuning economy at light cruise loads.

I realise I just made it sound so simple, so someone; please tell me what I've missed out!! :)

Anyway, lets assume I got the basic idea right, and I weld in a thermocouple on one of my header branches, say 1-1,5" away from the cylinder head/flange.

What Exhaust temperatures can I expect/ do I want to see?

Or perhaps more important; What sort of temperatures do I definitely NOT wish to se?! :shock:
mops
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Post by mops »

i'm not the expert on the subject, but your reasoning is definitely correct.

With the expection that at some stage of leaning out/advancing (before you reach misfires, etc) the power output will decerase due to decerased efficency at lean condition...

Where can you get a chaep pyrometer ? cheap EGT gauge runs about $100 at ebay.

I never tuned with one, so I cant advice what are good temps/bad temps...

but I'm definitely keen to find out :)
BMW, 1985, E30, 325i, 2-door, 5spd. Lots of custom work. Turbo build in progress: http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55733
superelbert
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pyrometrics....

Post by superelbert »

Yes, I'm quite interested in trying this out...

A lot of the tuning game is seat of the pants, but as with so many other things related to sensory input, its easy to become speed-blind, so I allways like to have some "objective" instrumentation input for reference...

Allso a good idea if one, like me, hasn't got too extensive experience on these matters.

Hopefully, I'll have some findings to post should I give it a try, and if anyone have a good reason for me not to spend 100$ on an EGT, please let me know ! :)
mops
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Post by mops »

great. EGT is a great tuning tool, but they are pretty expensive locally. definitely get one and give it a go.

EGT with wideband give you bretty good set of tuning tools :)
BMW, 1985, E30, 325i, 2-door, 5spd. Lots of custom work. Turbo build in progress: http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55733
Mario
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Post by Mario »

Hey guys any moving forward on this?
PSIG
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Post by PSIG »

Usually, when tuning with the Butt-O-Meter, I can feel a lean surging before the light shudder of lean misfire. I tune it a hair rich of lean surge and then play with the timing to get the lowest MAP at that RPM and TP using the longest and flatest piece of road I can find. A good driver helps a lot in this case, and it doesn't take long if you can hold the TP steady on level ground.

I have not tried verifying the results on a dyno but, if tuned any tighter then a different load of gasoline, weather or such would throw it off anyway. I'd be curious what the EGT reports with this system, but I would imagine it's much like what racers and pilots see when tuning for duration. Just a different way of coming at it with the tools at hand.

Comments?
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David
hobieboy
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Post by hobieboy »

David,
What does a lean misfire sound and/or feel like?

thanks.
PSIG
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Post by PSIG »

I feel for the surging first - like someone is gently playing with the gas pedal with a soft accel... decel... accel... and so on in one to maybe five-second intervals during stable fixed-throttle cruise. That's where I'll lock it in with 1 point richer VE and burn it.

Lean misfire begins with no sound, only a very slight shuddering - like driving over evenly spaced pencils on the road. It must be approached carefully as it will only shudder when one or two cylinders start doing it and the AFR goes suddenly leaner. If you vary the throttle or change the load, it's just a rough sagging of power and then a full-blown jerky miss and then you can hear it as well as see it on the AFR as a super lean reading.

Note that a rich condition has very similar symptoms. :shock:

David
ae1969
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Re: The budget...

Post by ae1969 »

superelbert wrote: From this assumption, I reason that if I use an exhaust gas temperature gauge, I can lean out untill I notice an increase in exhaust temperature, and then try to ad some more advance and see if this reduces the exhaust temperature.

If this is successfull, I can then try and lean out a bit more, and advance accordingly over again, untill at some point I run in to missfiring or exhaust temperatures that can't be brought back down through ignition advance.
That is exactly what I did for part throttle/cruising..........
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