Very strange (dwell) troubles with BMW COP M60
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Very strange (dwell) troubles with BMW COP M60
Maybe some one can help me, I have very strange problems installing MSII on BMW M60B40 V8. (E30 )
Setup:
MS-II extra rel. 2.0.0
PWM idle
8 x BIP373 with 8 x 680R
Stock COP ignition (Spark A on D14, going high)
Tacho out on JS10
VR circuit with C31= 0.001uF (works fine as it seems)
Stock 60-2 triggerwheel (60 deg offset, rising edge)
Complete custom wiring harness.
Innovate LC1
The engine idles fine, and overall it's running not so bad.
However, the engine gives misfires at some RPM levels.
Testing on the dyno with heavy load shows it's a serious problem. The RPM levels where misfires occur are clearly visible in the dyno results.
When setting dwell to 1.0ms! the engine runs best. With the calculated 2.6 ms dwell for these coils i have misfires @ 4000 rpm. Increasing the dwell time results in misfires at lower RPM's. For example, 4 ms dwell gives misfires @ 2400 rpm.
Setting dwell around 1.3 ms, misfires are in higher RPM levels, and this is the lowest value for maximum horsepower/torque. Decreasing down to 1.0 ms means losing power... (25 bhp), but misfires above 6000 rpm.
I tried using ford (motorcraft) DIS coil packs with four BIP 373 drivers. Same result....
We even tried GM LS2 (round) coils with build in ignition driver, no BIP's, only 330R between processor output and driver input. Same result.... (1ms dwell is best, but no top performance)
I replaced the daughterboard several times, tried other firmware (2.0.1) as well as an complete other MS-II ECU. Nothing helps.
I know it's not normal that dwell has set to be so low. But from processor output till plug I replaced and changed every part..
The problem is located somewhere else as it seems, but where?
Thanks in advance,
Someone any Ideas??
Best regards,
Johnny
Setup:
MS-II extra rel. 2.0.0
PWM idle
8 x BIP373 with 8 x 680R
Stock COP ignition (Spark A on D14, going high)
Tacho out on JS10
VR circuit with C31= 0.001uF (works fine as it seems)
Stock 60-2 triggerwheel (60 deg offset, rising edge)
Complete custom wiring harness.
Innovate LC1
The engine idles fine, and overall it's running not so bad.
However, the engine gives misfires at some RPM levels.
Testing on the dyno with heavy load shows it's a serious problem. The RPM levels where misfires occur are clearly visible in the dyno results.
When setting dwell to 1.0ms! the engine runs best. With the calculated 2.6 ms dwell for these coils i have misfires @ 4000 rpm. Increasing the dwell time results in misfires at lower RPM's. For example, 4 ms dwell gives misfires @ 2400 rpm.
Setting dwell around 1.3 ms, misfires are in higher RPM levels, and this is the lowest value for maximum horsepower/torque. Decreasing down to 1.0 ms means losing power... (25 bhp), but misfires above 6000 rpm.
I tried using ford (motorcraft) DIS coil packs with four BIP 373 drivers. Same result....
We even tried GM LS2 (round) coils with build in ignition driver, no BIP's, only 330R between processor output and driver input. Same result.... (1ms dwell is best, but no top performance)
I replaced the daughterboard several times, tried other firmware (2.0.1) as well as an complete other MS-II ECU. Nothing helps.
I know it's not normal that dwell has set to be so low. But from processor output till plug I replaced and changed every part..
The problem is located somewhere else as it seems, but where?
Thanks in advance,
Someone any Ideas??
Best regards,
Johnny
E30 340i V8
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Re: Very strange (dwell) troubles with BMW COP M60
Try upgrading to the 2.1.0 RC3 code, you can have additional gauges (syncloss and syncloss reason) to help pinpoint if you are losing sync with the wheel. A sync loss would cause a misfire. Conversely though, a misfire can also cause a syncloss.
Try the Output Test mode for coils to confirm that you coils are responding to dwell changes as you expect. i.e. is the spark getting weaker or stronger as dwell changes?
Are you using resistor plugs?
Have you tried changing plug gap?
James
Try the Output Test mode for coils to confirm that you coils are responding to dwell changes as you expect. i.e. is the spark getting weaker or stronger as dwell changes?
Are you using resistor plugs?
Have you tried changing plug gap?
James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk
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My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
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Re: Very strange (dwell) troubles with BMW COP M60
Thanks for your advise, James.
This morning I upgraded the firmware to 2.1.0 RC3.
Indeed I have sync loss at some rpm levels depending on dwell. (sync loss reason jumps to '2' while having sync loss, and goes back to '0' when the sync loss is past. What does it mean?
Applying 1ms dwell gives the best results, 2.5 ms dwell causes misfires, (or sync loss) in the mid-rpm range.
Any value bewteen these causes misfires between mid-rpm range and high rpm (6500).
I also tried a shorter dwell period by using the dwell battery correction. Almost same result as 1.0 ms dwell.
When moving the throttle slowly to high rpm, I don't have sync loss (most times). When accelerating fast, I have much more misfires. VE-table, ignition timing and acceleration enrichment are tuned properly.
I changed the gap of the plugs, tried other plugs. No improvement.
And yes, I'm using resistor plugs. (NGK BR6EK)
Testing output spark mode:
1ms: weak spark
1.5 ms: a little better spark
2.0 ms: a little more better spark
2.5 ms: best spark
>2.5 ms: good spark
This means the correct dwell is 2.5 ms(?), but I don't know what causes the misfires...(or sync loss!)
Thank you,
Johnny
This morning I upgraded the firmware to 2.1.0 RC3.
Indeed I have sync loss at some rpm levels depending on dwell. (sync loss reason jumps to '2' while having sync loss, and goes back to '0' when the sync loss is past. What does it mean?
Applying 1ms dwell gives the best results, 2.5 ms dwell causes misfires, (or sync loss) in the mid-rpm range.
Any value bewteen these causes misfires between mid-rpm range and high rpm (6500).
I also tried a shorter dwell period by using the dwell battery correction. Almost same result as 1.0 ms dwell.
When moving the throttle slowly to high rpm, I don't have sync loss (most times). When accelerating fast, I have much more misfires. VE-table, ignition timing and acceleration enrichment are tuned properly.
I changed the gap of the plugs, tried other plugs. No improvement.
And yes, I'm using resistor plugs. (NGK BR6EK)
Testing output spark mode:
1ms: weak spark
1.5 ms: a little better spark
2.0 ms: a little more better spark
2.5 ms: best spark
>2.5 ms: good spark
This means the correct dwell is 2.5 ms(?), but I don't know what causes the misfires...(or sync loss!)
Thank you,
Johnny
E30 340i V8
Re: Very strange (dwell) troubles with BMW COP M60
JohnnyNL,
Did you ever resolve this issue? I'm interested in what your coils like, since I'm starting to look into running my M62b44 with MS3.
Thad
Did you ever resolve this issue? I'm interested in what your coils like, since I'm starting to look into running my M62b44 with MS3.
Thad
--'98 Dodge Neon ACR Turbo - MS3 beta test car - Sold
--'97 BMW 540i/6spd - Single Front/Top Mount Turbo 550+ HP - MS3+MS3X V3.0 - Sold but ripping in Vegas
--'97 BMW 328i 5.3 L33/TH400 Swapped drift car - MS3+MS3X V3.0 Full Sequential - Turbos And Radiator In the Trunk 9.6@144 on a 1.55 60ft
--'97 BMW 540i/6spd - Single Front/Top Mount Turbo 550+ HP - MS3+MS3X V3.0 - Sold but ripping in Vegas
--'97 BMW 328i 5.3 L33/TH400 Swapped drift car - MS3+MS3X V3.0 Full Sequential - Turbos And Radiator In the Trunk 9.6@144 on a 1.55 60ft
Re: Very strange (dwell) troubles with BMW COP M60
Try adding a 10k ohm resistor to the VR signal line to clean up the sync loss. I have had good luck cleaning up sync loss on 60-2 trigger wheels with MS2/Extra doing this.
Linfert Performance/321 Motorsports
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SCCA 2023 FP National Champion Tuner/electrical engineer
100s of MS systems built installed and tuned
Support the developers!
SCCA 2019 SM National Champion Crew Chief
SCCA 2023 FP National Champion Tuner/electrical engineer
100s of MS systems built installed and tuned
Support the developers!
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Re: Very strange (dwell) troubles with BMW COP M60
I've had a very similar problem on my Microsquirted BMW M60 V8.
My setup is EDIS-8 with a 36-1 trigger wheel and a pair of Ford coilpacks, and i've had exactly the same problem as you mention. At around 4000rpm and higher the spark seems to give up intermittently and i'm in the process of troubleshooting.
This is probably an old thread now but i'd be really interested to hear if you managed to cure your problem.
My setup is EDIS-8 with a 36-1 trigger wheel and a pair of Ford coilpacks, and i've had exactly the same problem as you mention. At around 4000rpm and higher the spark seems to give up intermittently and i'm in the process of troubleshooting.
This is probably an old thread now but i'd be really interested to hear if you managed to cure your problem.
Story of a microsquirted BMW V8 in a ford Capri - http://www.bmwv8capri.yolasite.com
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Re: Very strange (dwell) troubles with BMW COP M60
Hi,
Yes I managed to solve it (3years ago ).
It was a VR related problem. Because I had made a custom wiring harness, the 2 VR wires where not insulated.
Used instead an original BMW vr cable and the problem was solved. I think your setup is a little different, and your problem is caused by someting else. After this build I've done 4 more M60's, all without problems. I also have a lot of experience with EDIS, but my opinion is that troubleshooting is a bit harder. Actually I don't really understand your choice for microsquirt?
I have done many MSII and some MSIII, which is in my opinion a better choice for your project.
-Johnny
Yes I managed to solve it (3years ago ).
It was a VR related problem. Because I had made a custom wiring harness, the 2 VR wires where not insulated.
Used instead an original BMW vr cable and the problem was solved. I think your setup is a little different, and your problem is caused by someting else. After this build I've done 4 more M60's, all without problems. I also have a lot of experience with EDIS, but my opinion is that troubleshooting is a bit harder. Actually I don't really understand your choice for microsquirt?
I have done many MSII and some MSIII, which is in my opinion a better choice for your project.
-Johnny
E30 340i V8
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- MS/Extra Newbie
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Re: Very strange (dwell) troubles with BMW COP M60
I have been pulling my hair out looking for information to help me. I have installed a standalone in a E30 V8 project and want to start it. Please what timing numbers can I use to get me going.
1- Lock ignition timing : ? degree BTDC
2- adjust offset until ignition timing matches number above : ? degree BTDC
3- adjust delay so ignition timing is constant over entire range : ? microseconds
also
Cam offset BTDC
Im running a M62tub44. having some cam sensor issues not triggering and just need a energy boost with this project.
1- Lock ignition timing : ? degree BTDC
2- adjust offset until ignition timing matches number above : ? degree BTDC
3- adjust delay so ignition timing is constant over entire range : ? microseconds
also
Cam offset BTDC
Im running a M62tub44. having some cam sensor issues not triggering and just need a energy boost with this project.
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- Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:44 pm
Re: Very strange (dwell) troubles with BMW COP M60
JohnnyNL wrote:Thanks for your advise, James.
This morning I upgraded the firmware to 2.1.0 RC3.
Indeed I have sync loss at some rpm levels depending on dwell. (sync loss reason jumps to '2' while having sync loss, and goes back to '0' when the sync loss is past. What does it mean?
Applying 1ms dwell gives the best results, 2.5 ms dwell causes misfires, (or sync loss) in the mid-rpm range.
Any value bewteen these causes misfires between mid-rpm range and high rpm (6500).
I also tried a shorter dwell period by using the dwell battery correction. Almost same result as 1.0 ms dwell.
When moving the throttle slowly to high rpm, I don't have sync loss (most times). When accelerating fast, I have much more misfires. VE-table, ignition timing and acceleration enrichment are tuned properly.
I changed the gap of the plugs, tried other plugs. No improvement.
And yes, I'm using resistor plugs. (NGK BR6EK)
Testing output spark mode:
1ms: weak spark
1.5 ms: a little better spark
2.0 ms: a little more better spark
2.5 ms: best spark
>2.5 ms: good spark
This means the correct dwell is 2.5 ms(?), but I don't know what causes the misfires...(or sync loss!)
Thank you,
Johnny
any chance you willing to share you pcl.file with the tuning map you have ?
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Re: Very strange (dwell) troubles with BMW COP M60
Hi,
I'm sorry, I don't have it anymore. I also don't know if the timing parameters are equal for M60 and M62.
-Johnny
I'm sorry, I don't have it anymore. I also don't know if the timing parameters are equal for M60 and M62.
-Johnny
E30 340i V8
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Re: Very strange (dwell) troubles with BMW COP M60
Oh noo. This was a good lead lol. Do you know anyone who might be able to help?
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Re: Very strange (dwell) troubles with BMW COP M60
The number you'd use in current firmware is Tooth #1 Angle instead of offset, but it's not all that complicated. Most engines can run at 10 to 15 degrees BTDC, so use that value for a fixed angle, get a timing light, and adjust Tooth #1 Angle until you get that advance on the timing light.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
Re: Very strange (dwell) troubles with BMW COP M60
Only four years later, but M62 information is in short supply around here!
Deadjackyl, what settings did you find to be the correct ones when all was said and done?
Deadjackyl, what settings did you find to be the correct ones when all was said and done?
--'98 Dodge Neon ACR Turbo - MS3 beta test car - Sold
--'97 BMW 540i/6spd - Single Front/Top Mount Turbo 550+ HP - MS3+MS3X V3.0 - Sold but ripping in Vegas
--'97 BMW 328i 5.3 L33/TH400 Swapped drift car - MS3+MS3X V3.0 Full Sequential - Turbos And Radiator In the Trunk 9.6@144 on a 1.55 60ft
--'97 BMW 540i/6spd - Single Front/Top Mount Turbo 550+ HP - MS3+MS3X V3.0 - Sold but ripping in Vegas
--'97 BMW 328i 5.3 L33/TH400 Swapped drift car - MS3+MS3X V3.0 Full Sequential - Turbos And Radiator In the Trunk 9.6@144 on a 1.55 60ft