New MS3 or stick with old MS2?

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New MS3 or stick with old MS2?

Postby Jim Blackwood » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:02 am

Hi James and others. It's been awhile, but I'm upgrading my old MGB and will soon be getting around to the electronics. It's good to renew acquaintances. I've been out of the loop awhile and I see you guys have made a lot of progress and I'd like to begin with congratulations all around. Really impressive what you've been doing.

Anyway the scoop is: blown, intercooled Buick 340 mated to a Lexus AA80E 8 speed automatic. Several sort of techy things going on here. Lance has been helping sort out the transmission control based on the GPIO board and it looks like that can be made to work, though it's a bit of a challenge to get enough outputs. Also I'm very impressed with Bill Jacobson's new MS3 install with 8 EGT's. Because I have to do header mods it'd be feasible to go that route. I also just happen to have a full set of 8 COP coils on the shelf if I decide to migrate away from the EDIS8 system, and then there is sequential to consider.

My MS-II (v3) has a knock sensor circuit in the proto area which I like and would prefer not to give up, and I have an IM wideband. Bill said that the autotune in MS3 really works well and I like the sound of that. I never had much luck with it on my old controller.

Now as if all of this wasn't plenty already, my brother Dan (now running MS2 on his Triumph TR4-A) wants to swap a Toyota V8 into his TR7 along with a 5 speed automatic so he's looking at controllers too.

The problem of course is that I'm not yet up to speed on the MS3 and the various add on boards. My initial take is that the MS3 with a couple GPIO's should do the job on my upgrade but I'm not familiar with what the MS3X is or does. Is that similar to the GPIO board? I'm thinking if I do go MS3 I can sell my old MS2 and the one out of my truck to help finance the upgrade so the cost shouldn't be that much of a factor. On the other hand, the MS2 is already installed and maybe adding one or two GPIO boards to it is all I need to do. Any guidance on this would sure be appreciated.

Anyway it's good to be back. I've sent Dan the link to the shindig in Atlanta, I think it'd be fun if we could make that.

JB
Last edited by Jim Blackwood on Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New MS3 or stick with old MS2?

Postby jsmcortina » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:07 am

Take a look here http://www.ms3efi.com/product2.html for an explanation of how the MS3X card fits into the equation.

MS3 is upwardly plug-compatible with most MS2 wiring (but not MS2 sequential or MS2 "dual spark" card changes) so your knock input ought to work just the same.

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Re: New MS3 or stick with old MS2?

Postby Jim Blackwood » Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:15 am

I think I'm starting to get the idea. Please correct me if I'm wrong, these are my current assumptions:
-To run the MS3 I need the MS-3.57 motherboard. I have a v2.2 and a v3.0
-The MS3 is a daughterboard like the MS2 but with a SD card socket and additional comm. I have 2ea MS2 v3.01 boards as well as a MS2 v1.0 and an old 68HC908, all unused hardware at this point. May be able to sell some of it. I was part of the original MS2 group buy.
-The MS3X is an add-on board similar to the GPIO but used to control COP and sequential injectors.

What I don't know:
-Do the MS3X and GPIO have different programming requirements, or will code designed to run on one work with the other? I'm not a programmer and don't pretend to be.
-If the MS3X has more capability than the GPIO and can run the same code, would it make sense for me to consider using two MS3X boards and control the transmission with the second MS3X board? The transmission has 9 solenoids, many of which are PWM. This pushes the limits of the GPIO.

JB
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Re: New MS3 or stick with old MS2?

Postby prof315 » Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:27 am

MS3 will work fine with a V3.0 mainboard. The 3X is indeed an expansion board specifically designed to plug and play with an MS3 daughterboard. It has 8 high Z injector drivers, 8 logic level spark outputs, 6 medium current output drivers and a bunch of other I/O. Not really like a GPIO at all.
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Re: New MS3 or stick with old MS2?

Postby jsmcortina » Sat Mar 12, 2011 10:18 am

There is no CPU on the MS3X, it is solely an I/O card for the MS3.

Conversely, the GPIO is not intended to do fuel or spark.

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Re: New MS3 or stick with old MS2?

Postby Jim Blackwood » Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:18 am

Good, that helps a great deal.
So, using the MS3X for transmission control would mean sharing processor time with the MS3, possibly slowing down shift commands slightly. (The factory Lexus controller has this issue.) Conversely, using the on-board processor of the GPIO should be faster?

So the new paradigm would be:
-MS v3.01 motherboard
-MS3 daughterboard
-MS3X extender for sequential, COP, and possibly 8 EGR inputs
-GPIO for transmission control

Plus a new case to fit it into. This would let me also retain my onboard knock sensor I have in the proto area of the v3.01 board. I like that idea.

What are the advantages of using the v3.57 motherboard over the v3.01 board?

Regards,
JB
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Re: New MS3 or stick with old MS2?

Postby Jim Blackwood » Sat Mar 12, 2011 10:00 pm

Picked up a bit more. v3.01 board is similar to the v3.57 except not premanufactured? So the features are more or less the same it looks like. Works for me. However, it seems EGT inputs have to come off an extender board like the GPIO. With my GPIO being used for the transmission it doesn't seem like inputting the EGT's there would work out too well, and it doesn't sound like the MS3X has enough inputs to accommodate them either. Is this a correct assumption?

Which would seem to indicate that I have the choice of either not using EGT inputs (not the end of the world), or possibly getting really crazy with the controller and adding *two* GPIO boards in addition to the MS3 and the MS3X.

Is that it, or do I have another option?

JB
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Re: New MS3 or stick with old MS2?

Postby gurov » Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:48 am

Jim Blackwood wrote:Picked up a bit more. v3.01 board is similar to the v3.57 except not premanufactured? So the features are more or less the same it looks like. Works for me. However, it seems EGT inputs have to come off an extender board like the GPIO. With my GPIO being used for the transmission it doesn't seem like inputting the EGT's there would work out too well, and it doesn't sound like the MS3X has enough inputs to accommodate them either. Is this a correct assumption?

Which would seem to indicate that I have the choice of either not using EGT inputs (not the end of the world), or possibly getting really crazy with the controller and adding *two* GPIO boards in addition to the MS3 and the MS3X.

Is that it, or do I have another option?

JB


jbperf.com makes an IO-X that you can input 8 egt channels into as well as a bunch of other inputs/outputs. all over CAN.
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Re: New MS3 or stick with old MS2?

Postby gurov » Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:52 am

ms3 has no transmission control, not sure if it's even planned. there's torque converter clutch control for some reason though.

it wouldn't really slow anything down if ms3 had transmission control, it would just make the code slightly more complex, and mix the realms of transmission control and engine control. megashift does okay, and will do WAY better once the code is fixed ( more, 4.0 beta). I've been running megashift on the bmw for a while now, plenty of seat time with it.

as far as knock sensor goes, i would honestly say dump whatever input you have into megasquirt and go with something like a j&s safeguard. MS does not do knock windowing yet, so it becomes useless as it is overwhelmed with valvetrain noise.

Jim Blackwood wrote:Good, that helps a great deal.
So, using the MS3X for transmission control would mean sharing processor time with the MS3, possibly slowing down shift commands slightly. (The factory Lexus controller has this issue.) Conversely, using the on-board processor of the GPIO should be faster?

So the new paradigm would be:
-MS v3.01 motherboard
-MS3 daughterboard
-MS3X extender for sequential, COP, and possibly 8 EGR inputs
-GPIO for transmission control

Plus a new case to fit it into. This would let me also retain my onboard knock sensor I have in the proto area of the v3.01 board. I like that idea.

What are the advantages of using the v3.57 motherboard over the v3.01 board?

Regards,
JB
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Re: New MS3 or stick with old MS2?

Postby Jim Blackwood » Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:28 am

Thanks, I really appreciate the advice. For the transmission I am planning on using MegaShift and this is where it gets a little confusing for me, as I want to get everything to work together. Lance was unable to make any suggestions that went beyond MegaShift, although he has been a very big help in doing the preliminary work to get it to work with the 8 speed Lexus (Toyota) automatic. But I'm still not real clear on what exactly is required in the way of hardware. I thought the MegaShift used the GPIO board and simply connected via CAN to the MegaSquirt controller, whether MS2 or MS3. At my present level of understanding (or lack thereof) my impression is that I need:

-v3.01 motherboard, which I have, for engine control and basic input/output. It has a basic, ungated KS circuit but it is not being used to automatically vary timing. It lights an indicator on the side of the case and is somewhat useful in determining max advance under restricted conditions if carefully adjusted using a knob on the side of the case. I believe it is connected to a usable input but will have to find my circuit diagram. It uses the KS circuitry developed by one of the established members of this forum but for the moment his name escapes me, but it pretty well uses up all of the proto area real estate. This motherboard also accepts an input from the LM-1 WB, and is configured for EDIS and 2 wire PWM IAC (Ford). SPR1 and SPR2 are still reserved for CANbus use.

-MS3 needed to allow the use of sequential, COP, and independent EGT as well as greatly refined autotune. SD chip datalogging is a potential plus.

-MS3X needed for sequential, COP, and EGT inputs. The question is, can the 8 EGT inputs be brought in on this board? My information so far seems to say no. If not, is it possible that retaining the EDIS instead of going to COP could allow it? I'm doubtful. Does this mean an additional GPIO is required for EGT or is there another alternative? Perhaps the JBPerf IO-X is the answer and I will look into it. Are they a certified Vendor? All I really know about them at this point is that Bill Jacobson used their services and had very good results. But they weren't on the vendor list I found. I've bought from Glen's garage mostly in the past, after we quit doing the group buys so much.

-GPIO needed to run MegaShift. http://www.msgpio.com/forums/viewtopic. ... ec15fc292a Independent from MegaSquirt but using inputs and providing outputs via the CANbus.
This board has to control 9 solenoids, 7 of which are PWM. One more could be PWM but I do not think so. We have most of the details worked out on the other outputs and dozen or more inputs but we are taxing the limits of the board and it will only work if we bring in as many inputs as we can off the CANbus. I do not foresee any option for bringing in the EGT here.

So to simplify, it looks to me like I need the MS3, MS3X, GPIO for MegaShift, and probably the IO-X. Does that sound like it makes sense to you guys?

JB
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Re: New MS3 or stick with old MS2?

Postby racingmini_mtl » Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:50 am

I won't comment on the GPIO because I don't know much about it. I do know that you cannot get 8 EGT inputs with only an MS3/MS3X setup. The most analog inputs you have on this that could be used for this purpose is 5: 2 on the V3.0 or V3.57 board and 3 on the MS3X board.

And I am not on the list of approved Megasquirt vendors because I do not sell Megasquirt products. I only sell my own products which can be used with Megasquirt products. And there are quite a few MS3 owners who also have an IOx and of those, many are using it for EGT measurements.

Jean
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Re: New MS3 or stick with old MS2?

Postby muythaibxr » Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:58 am

You could use James' transmission code that runs on a microsquirt as a transmission controller.

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Re: New MS3 or stick with old MS2?

Postby racingmini_mtl » Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:01 pm

muythaibxr wrote:You could use James' transmission code that runs on a microsquirt as a transmission controller.

Ken

I'm not sure there are enough I/Os on the microsquirt for the 8-speed transmission he wants to use.

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Re: New MS3 or stick with old MS2?

Postby Jim Blackwood » Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:04 pm

Thanks Jean I do appreciate your response and I would like to know more about this IO-X board. Since it is starting to look like I'm beginning to get the hardware list sorted out I will contact you to discuss doing business with you. Bill spoke highly of your product support and that is something which would be most helpful on this project. I think I mentioned I've been out of the loop for awhile so I apologize for not knowing your history in the group.

Ken, thanks for the suggestion. I will need to do some investigation to see if the idea has merit. James is a fellow with great abilities and I have a lot of respect for his work.

JB
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Re: New MS3 or stick with old MS2?

Postby gurov » Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:05 pm

Jim Blackwood wrote:Thanks, I really appreciate the advice. For the transmission I am planning on using MegaShift and this is where it gets a little confusing for me, as I want to get everything to work together. Lance was unable to make any suggestions that went beyond MegaShift, although he has been a very big help in doing the preliminary work to get it to work with the 8 speed Lexus (Toyota) automatic. But I'm still not real clear on what exactly is required in the way of hardware. I thought the MegaShift used the GPIO board and simply connected via CAN to the MegaSquirt controller, whether MS2 or MS3. At my present level of understanding (or lack thereof) my impression is that I need:

-v3.01 motherboard, which I have, for engine control and basic input/output. It has a basic, ungated KS circuit but it is not being used to automatically vary timing. It lights an indicator on the side of the case and is somewhat useful in determining max advance under restricted conditions if carefully adjusted using a knob on the side of the case. I believe it is connected to a usable input but will have to find my circuit diagram. It uses the KS circuitry developed by one of the established members of this forum but for the moment his name escapes me, but it pretty well uses up all of the proto area real estate. This motherboard also accepts an input from the LM-1 WB, and is configured for EDIS and 2 wire PWM IAC (Ford). SPR1 and SPR2 are still reserved for CANbus use.

-MS3 needed to allow the use of sequential, COP, and independent EGT as well as greatly refined autotune. SD chip datalogging is a potential plus.

-MS3X needed for sequential, COP, and EGT inputs. The question is, can the 8 EGT inputs be brought in on this board? My information so far seems to say no. If not, is it possible that retaining the EDIS instead of going to COP could allow it? I'm doubtful. Does this mean an additional GPIO is required for EGT or is there another alternative? Perhaps the JBPerf IO-X is the answer and I will look into it. Are they a certified Vendor? All I really know about them at this point is that Bill Jacobson used their services and had very good results. But they weren't on the vendor list I found. I've bought from Glen's garage mostly in the past, after we quit doing the group buys so much.

-GPIO needed to run MegaShift. http://www.msgpio.com/forums/viewtopic. ... ec15fc292a Independent from MegaSquirt but using inputs and providing outputs via the CANbus.
This board has to control 9 solenoids, 7 of which are PWM. One more could be PWM but I do not think so. We have most of the details worked out on the other outputs and dozen or more inputs but we are taxing the limits of the board and it will only work if we bring in as many inputs as we can off the CANbus. I do not foresee any option for bringing in the EGT here.

So to simplify, it looks to me like I need the MS3, MS3X, GPIO for MegaShift, and probably the IO-X. Does that sound like it makes sense to you guys?

JB


spr1/spr2 being "reserved" for canbus use is somewhat misleading, if you can create input circuits inside the case you can route the connections there and simply create a different connector for the CAN bus interface. it's not quite part of the harness that would go out to the engine, but i suppose it would make sense. on my bmw, it is sent through one of the spare pins over to the other side of the engine bay to gpio, but i would not hesitate to take that out of the harness if i needed extra pins. i of course do not need these because of the io-x and it's insane amount of extra ADC inputs it adds.

that's a pretty complete list of hardware, but you should figure out how you are going to get cam angle input into the engine management (ms3x's vr could be used) and whether you need to have two cam sensors for VVT (if present)
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Re: New MS3 or stick with old MS2?

Postby Jim Blackwood » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:43 am

Thanks, I hadn't thought about that. Since it's EDIS right now the only thing I should need with that is the cam sensor for #1 cylinder I think, but if I go to COP I'd need to do things a bit differently. I need to find my wiring diagram for the car, then I should be able to sort out the pin assignments.

JB
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Re: New MS3 or stick with old MS2?

Postby Jim Blackwood » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:00 am

If I use the MSX to generate the signals for the COP drivers, can I use the four injector driver transisters on the MS v.3.0 board heat sink and their outputs to the connector pins as the driver circuits for four of the coils? That would leave me needing four more coil drivers. Would the best way to do that be to jumper the outputs from the MSX board directly to the transistor inputs? or is there a better way? I'm thinking if I can mount the other 4 transistors I can use SP1 through SP4 as the output pins for the other four drivers and just duplicate the circuits.

JB
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Re: New MS3 or stick with old MS2?

Postby jsmcortina » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:37 am

There are only two injector channels on the mainboard and they aren't suitable for driving coils.

I used an external ignition module on my install. (V8 wasted spark)

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Re: New MS3 or stick with old MS2?

Postby Jim Blackwood » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:38 pm

OK, just wondering. What do the guys who have 8 COPs to drive do? Build a coil driver box? I was sort of hoping there was a way to get everything in one enclosure but if there's not then there's not. It would be one more tick in the column for keeping the EDIS I suppose, but the individual COPs would look pretty good I think.

JB
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Re: New MS3 or stick with old MS2?

Postby thebrelon » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:19 am

Jim Blackwood wrote:OK, just wondering. What do the guys who have 8 COPs to drive do? Build a coil driver box? I was sort of hoping there was a way to get everything in one enclosure but if there's not then there's not. It would be one more tick in the column for keeping the EDIS I suppose, but the individual COPs would look pretty good I think.

JB


they either build a spark box or use logic level COPs with a built in driver.
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