KTM V-Twin & V3.57 board with two MAP/TPS/O2?

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KTM V-Twin & V3.57 board with two MAP/TPS/O2?

Postby Fastship2 » Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:26 am

I was refered here from the Microsquirt forum, I'm looking for advice on the V3.57 board.

My application is a KTM V-Twin (an RC-8 motorcycle) which I was hoping to convert to microsquirt injection/ignition. This engine has sensors replicated for each cylinder namely MAP/TPS/O2 on each cylinder in addition to intake air temp sensor and ambient air pressure sensors but it appears microsquirt can't accept discrete inputs from these sensors to enable you tune each cylinder individually.

My question therefore, is there any way the V3.57 board can accept signals from two TPS & MAP in addition to the other sensors to enable individual cylinder tuning?

Thanks for your advice.

See original topic here:
http://www.microsquirt.com/viewtopic.php?f=97&t=23916
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Re: KTM V-Twin & V3.57 board with two MAP/TPS/O2?

Postby Fastship2 » Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:31 am

I am obliged to Phil at ExtraEFi for the following:

"the code doesnt currently allow seperate tuning via 2 MAP sensors or 2
TPS, the fuel maps only run from one input (TPS, MAF, MAP, etc) at a
time, so even if you could achieve the wiring the code isnt there
Phil"


This should help others contemplating squirting this engine.


Just some additional information I found; the Keihin Efi fitted to this KTM has no cam position input yet allows sequential injection. It appears to achieve cam sync by the use of the 24-2 crank wheel to establish TDC on cylinder #1, injecting at ~TDC and measuring any increase in crank wheel speed that occurs. If a speed increase is found it records that crank position as TDC compression cyl. #,1 synching to that position.


Any thoughts on this method of cam synching?
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Re: KTM V-Twin & V3.57 board with two MAP/TPS/O2?

Postby D_J » Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:50 am

I'm planning on Microsquirting a RC8R engine for my 950 SM.

Do you have any additional info about your conversion?
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Re: KTM V-Twin & V3.57 board with two MAP/TPS/O2?

Postby R100RT » Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:59 am

Not sure you are both still working towards a Microsquirt on this style of engine, but in regards to the duplication of sensors and wish to fine tune each cylinder, you might try a multi contact relay (yes, analog but on a 4 row for instance you might utilize a master control switch to alternate between left and right bank for the sensors "signal" leads such that all transfer at the same time). If you run logs with a time record of "left" and "right" positions you could review and correct in that manner.
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Re: KTM V-Twin & V3.57 board with two MAP/TPS/O2?

Postby LAV1000 » Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:25 am

Maybe using 2 microsquirt modules 1 for each cillinder ?
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Re: KTM V-Twin & V3.57 board with two MAP/TPS/O2?

Postby Matt Cramer » Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:12 pm

Fastship2 wrote:I was refered here from the Microsquirt forum, I'm looking for advice on the V3.57 board.

My application is a KTM V-Twin (an RC-8 motorcycle) which I was hoping to convert to microsquirt injection/ignition. This engine has sensors replicated for each cylinder namely MAP/TPS/O2 on each cylinder...


You could use a MicroSquirt running MS2/Extra code for this; no real reason to use a larger V3.57 that I see.

Dual O2s are supported no problem.

Dual MAP sensors are not supported, but if you plumb both manifolds to one MAP sensor with very short hoses, you can use the MAP sampling code to make it read each cylinder separately. It will, however, simply average the readings between cylinders, so it's not a substitute for proper throttle body synchronization. And if they're synced correctly, there should be no need for two TPSs. If there is a small variation between the two, the O2 correction should be able to mop things up.
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Re: KTM V-Twin & V3.57 board with two MAP/TPS/O2?

Postby Tassuperkart » Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:01 am

Thread dig here.
I have an odd fire 90 degree V twin currently using a TTR Ignitions dual MAP sensor and using the cylinder # 1 output for a cam trigger input. Im running this bike In ITB mode which im particularly happy with.
Logs show an inconsistent signal when cranking resulting in difficult starting, engine kickbacks and some pretty big explosions in the exhaust pipe but once running the engine is smooth! This issues just appeared one day so im suspecting a MAP sensor fault of some kind as previously, the reliable and robust starting was a real feature of this install.

I know i cant use 2 independant MAP sensors so can i configure the MAP sampling code with a single MAP sensor to average both cylinders and provide a cam phase signal for #1 or am i dreaming?

Cheers
Evan
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Re: KTM V-Twin & V3.57 board with two MAP/TPS/O2?

Postby Matt Cramer » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:54 am

Tassuperkart wrote:I know i cant use 2 independant MAP sensors so can i configure the MAP sampling code with a single MAP sensor to average both cylinders and provide a cam phase signal for #1 or am i dreaming?

Cheers
Evan


Yes, you can use the sampling with one MAP sensor.

As for the other issues: :msq:
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Re: KTM V-Twin & V3.57 board with two MAP/TPS/O2?

Postby Tassuperkart » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:22 pm

Hahaha I didnt bother posting an MSQ at this stage until Id eliminated or confirmed the MAP sensor was definitely at fault.
Starting has always been a shining feature of this install and it suddenly went south one day.
Reloading MSQ's, firmwares and so-on had no effect so ill just eliminate what the logs seem to indicate first, a dodgey cam signal while cranking.

Cheers
E
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Re: KTM V-Twin & V3.57 board with two MAP/TPS/O2?

Postby Tassuperkart » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:20 pm

OK
The ECU is set to sequentially fire. ITB mode. 24-1 toothed wheel on the crank with a single VSS and to date I have been using a TTR Ignitions dual map sensor using the cyl #1 cam phasing digital signal into the second trigger input set to Cam. This has been running perfectly until recently and now the engine is close to impossible to strt with backfires and engine kicking kard backwards or just nothing at all.
Once actually running, it runs perfectly. Trigger logs show inconsistent cam input.
Ive fitted a single GM map sensor and calibrated it.

Just to confirm, will a single MAP sensor sitting between both cylinders be ok to provide a useful cam phasing signal?
Im not certain how the code will determine between #1 and #2 cylinders with only a single crank trigger.

Cheers
E
Attachments
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Re: KTM V-Twin & V3.57 board with two MAP/TPS/O2?

Postby Tassuperkart » Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:48 am

Well, i changed over to a different single MAP sensor and just for testing purposes, I plugged in #1 cylinder only. Changed load source to TPS for both fuel and ignition and set the cam input to MAP and the other necessary settings.
The banging, kicking back and mostly not starting issue remains but if it does manage to start it runs just beautifully.
I set the ECU to ignore up to 10 engine periods (usually 3) but this made no difference at all and the engine tries to run almost immediately the starter is hit.

I suspect that something in the ECU is trying to die and might be related to the mysteriously blown injector driver a little while ago. Ive always suspected that the operation of the ECU, in particular initial starting was a little less robust after that. I thought I might have been imagining things but id say not now.

Oh well.
E
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Re: KTM V-Twin & V3.57 board with two MAP/TPS/O2?

Postby SwedCharger-67 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:19 am

I built a hi compression V8 for alcohol, and destroyed 2 starters due to kickbacks before I started understanding the problem. Normally I would have cranking ignition 6 degrees BTC (you have 8 I think), but that didn't work, the kickbacks simply thrashed the starters...I have the whole summer been using cranking ignition at -2, i.e. 2 degrees after TDC, that works, no more destroyed starters.
My own theory is that in an engine with big pistons and hi static compression, during cranking on the compression stroke the crank slows down so much that the previously computed ignition point is just too early. :D
Martin, Sweden
Mopar 512 cui, 8.4 liters, high compression, fuel E85, full sequential control by MS3X, burning rubber just blipping the throttle... :D
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Re: KTM V-Twin & V3.57 board with two MAP/TPS/O2?

Postby Tassuperkart » Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:51 pm

Fair point.
However, Id experimented with cranking advance for months. Anything between 0 and 8 degrees worked just fine. Cold starting seemed better with additional advance so thats how it got there.

This setup has started faultlessly until recently and the problems appeared suddenly. From one smooth start to the next and trouble ever since.
I originally figured a firmware glitch which i had gotten when the injector driver failed some time back.

The kicking back is a more minor symptom really compared to either not starting at all, occasional coughing, or a giant explosion in the exhaust pipe and a 600mm long flame and ringing ears for several hours afterwards!
If the engine doesnt do something erratic or try to blow the muffler into orbit, it will start up immediately and better than OEM.
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Re: KTM V-Twin & V3.57 board with two MAP/TPS/O2?

Postby SwedCharger-67 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:42 am

I'm just guessing here but maybe your MAP-signal is too smooth with a lag factor of 20? Maybe it makes it harder to detect a consistent point in time? What happens if you go to 100?

I like the KTMs, even though I currently just have a Ducati ST2 and a 1967 Triumph 650 in my basement. Some impressive performance from the KTMs and Ducatis. Due to age I have now switched to a touring version of the Ducati, but the 916SPS that I bought new I will never forget, what an amazing machine! Recently sold it in shape as new to a Swedish collector of bikes...it's now retired as a show piece in Stockholm. Pressing the starter and when the engine sprung to life...music!! :D
Martin, Sweden
Mopar 512 cui, 8.4 liters, high compression, fuel E85, full sequential control by MS3X, burning rubber just blipping the throttle... :D
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Re: KTM V-Twin & V3.57 board with two MAP/TPS/O2?

Postby SwedCharger-67 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:57 am

I'm also looking at your ignition cold advance...at least while troubleshooting I would remove all cold advance.
And surely your RC-8 revs way more than 5600 rpms... :D
Martin, Sweden
Mopar 512 cui, 8.4 liters, high compression, fuel E85, full sequential control by MS3X, burning rubber just blipping the throttle... :D
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900SS Ducati with Microsquirt

Postby Tassuperkart » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:24 am

SwedCharger-67 wrote:I'm also looking at your ignition cold advance...at least while troubleshooting I would remove all cold advance.
And surely your RC-8 revs way more than 5600 rpms... :D


I should point out that my bike isnt the KTM!!

Mine is an old bevel drive Ducati 900ss!! I just dug the thread out when searching as some of the info was relevant!!!!!
I should start a new one to make it less confusing!!!
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Re: KTM V-Twin & V3.57 board with two MAP/TPS/O2?

Postby SwedCharger-67 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:13 am

Oh well...now I'm really confused...and surprised... :D
Martin, Sweden
Mopar 512 cui, 8.4 liters, high compression, fuel E85, full sequential control by MS3X, burning rubber just blipping the throttle... :D
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Re: KTM V-Twin & V3.57 board with two MAP/TPS/O2?

Postby FOXX » Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:06 pm

Hi Fastship2 , how did you check the timing on your LC8 1190 engine?
I have to check mine (LC8 950) but there is not a hole to check it except the tiny hole to block the crankshaft.
I'm planning to make a hole on the generator cover and mark the flywheel.
:D
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