"MS4" wishlist thread
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"MS4" wishlist thread
I am not on Facebook, nor will ever be unless forced at gunpoint, but I looked at the DIYautotune public facebook page and saw the request for hardware wishes for a next generation Megasquirt. I hereby create a thread with the same purpose on the forums. Moderate, move or delete at will.
My wishlist, hardware wise
Onboard DSP
Can be useful for a multitude of purposes, but the specific purpose in mind is realtime PPP and knock detection from in-head pressure sensors and/or ion sensing coils
Direct injection capabilities
For both diesel and DI petrol systems
32 bit SoC
If not for any other purpose than to have more RAM and non-volatile storage, I understand from discussions that this is already becoming a problem with the MS3. The gate array part of an SoC can possibly replace a discrete DSP.
WBO2 support
WBO2 driver on-board, or at least a dedicated serial port to read WB data from Innovate and others in digital form. Proper grounding for analog connections is a nightmare.
DBW subsystem
For safety reasons this could be implemented as a standalone-but-onboard system.
Differential analog inputs
For when you have to use single wire sensors, run separate sensing grounds to nearby points.
Rheostat outputs
To run gauge clusters in pre-CAN cars. Hook the fuel level, oil pressure etc sensors to the MS and connect the gauge cluster to the MS. Avoids the problem of having to share sensors.
My wishlist, hardware wise
Onboard DSP
Can be useful for a multitude of purposes, but the specific purpose in mind is realtime PPP and knock detection from in-head pressure sensors and/or ion sensing coils
Direct injection capabilities
For both diesel and DI petrol systems
32 bit SoC
If not for any other purpose than to have more RAM and non-volatile storage, I understand from discussions that this is already becoming a problem with the MS3. The gate array part of an SoC can possibly replace a discrete DSP.
WBO2 support
WBO2 driver on-board, or at least a dedicated serial port to read WB data from Innovate and others in digital form. Proper grounding for analog connections is a nightmare.
DBW subsystem
For safety reasons this could be implemented as a standalone-but-onboard system.
Differential analog inputs
For when you have to use single wire sensors, run separate sensing grounds to nearby points.
Rheostat outputs
To run gauge clusters in pre-CAN cars. Hook the fuel level, oil pressure etc sensors to the MS and connect the gauge cluster to the MS. Avoids the problem of having to share sensors.
Joachim
1974 Jensen-Healey
1990 VW Caravelle Syncro - running MS3+X
2014 Ford Fiesta EcoBoost
1974 Jensen-Healey
1990 VW Caravelle Syncro - running MS3+X
2014 Ford Fiesta EcoBoost
Re: "MS4" wishlist thread
I agree with just about all of the above!
One thing that would be huge for me (and similar to one of your suggestions) would be changing the power-supply scheme so part of the circuitry could be powered all the time, specifically SRAM that could store adaptation factors and so on. That would also make implementing a "burn-off" function for MAF sensors much easier.
I'd like to see a change in the form factor, to something possibly longer and/or wider but not as tall. This would give a greater chance of fitting the MS in place of an OEM ECU.
On the rheostat outputs... have you ever tried doing that with a general-purpose output and a generic PWM? I've got mine set up that way, using the MS3X "Nitrous1" output (I think) connected directly to the low side of the temperature gauge in the cluster, and it works fine.
I think DBW would be wonderful, but opens a huge Pandora's box re liability. If anyone did implement it (and sell it to the public) they'd be crazy not to have a ton of insurance, which would drive up the cost of the product.
One thing that would be huge for me (and similar to one of your suggestions) would be changing the power-supply scheme so part of the circuitry could be powered all the time, specifically SRAM that could store adaptation factors and so on. That would also make implementing a "burn-off" function for MAF sensors much easier.
I'd like to see a change in the form factor, to something possibly longer and/or wider but not as tall. This would give a greater chance of fitting the MS in place of an OEM ECU.
On the rheostat outputs... have you ever tried doing that with a general-purpose output and a generic PWM? I've got mine set up that way, using the MS3X "Nitrous1" output (I think) connected directly to the low side of the temperature gauge in the cluster, and it works fine.
I think DBW would be wonderful, but opens a huge Pandora's box re liability. If anyone did implement it (and sell it to the public) they'd be crazy not to have a ton of insurance, which would drive up the cost of the product.
Eric Law
1990 Audi 80 quattro with AAN turbo engine: happily running on MS3+MS3X
2012 Audi A4 quattro, desperately in need of tweaking
Be alert! America needs more lerts.
1990 Audi 80 quattro with AAN turbo engine: happily running on MS3+MS3X
2012 Audi A4 quattro, desperately in need of tweaking
Be alert! America needs more lerts.
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread
AEM has it, Link has it, the list goes on. The reason I proposed a standalone-but-onboard system is that the firmware then could be written to DO-178B or equivalent standard, certified and left alone. With all the safety systems in that one controller stuff like cruise control could still be implemented in the main controller, or so one should think.elaw wrote:I think DBW would be wonderful, but opens a huge Pandora's box re liability. If anyone did implement it (and sell it to the public) they'd be crazy not to have a ton of insurance, which would drive up the cost of the product.
Absolutely agreeing on the switched/non-switched power supply, btw!
Joachim
1974 Jensen-Healey
1990 VW Caravelle Syncro - running MS3+X
2014 Ford Fiesta EcoBoost
1974 Jensen-Healey
1990 VW Caravelle Syncro - running MS3+X
2014 Ford Fiesta EcoBoost
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread
i think stepper control of DBW should be done, but the cruse control should be left out, this is where there are more concerns for bugs to creep in.
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread
drive by wire would ...if implemented.... change the whole face of traction control ,launch control, and flatshift. Also agree wholeheartedly about having a keep-alive memory for adaptations.
Ricky-
1995 Nissan 240sx, 403 LS strokerv8 N/A 6speed trans
MS3&MS3X v.3.0 PCB
42lb/hr Hi-Z inj.,230/232 @.050 on 114LSA cam
sequential fuel and sequential spark
LS3/LSA card MAF sensor
97 Mazda MX5
MS3 2002 vvt motor
.60 trim T4 Turbo at 15 PSI
1995 Nissan 240sx, 403 LS strokerv8 N/A 6speed trans
MS3&MS3X v.3.0 PCB
42lb/hr Hi-Z inj.,230/232 @.050 on 114LSA cam
sequential fuel and sequential spark
LS3/LSA card MAF sensor
97 Mazda MX5
MS3 2002 vvt motor
.60 trim T4 Turbo at 15 PSI
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread
More handy stuff I thought of:
OBD2 connection for standardized diagnostics. A must for stealth installs on newer cars where ODB2 must make sense and not give error codes to pass the MoT. I believe this to be CANbus, but an extra, separate channel with the correct protocol would be a plus.
Onboard Bluetooth for ShadowDash and the likes.
OBD2 connection for standardized diagnostics. A must for stealth installs on newer cars where ODB2 must make sense and not give error codes to pass the MoT. I believe this to be CANbus, but an extra, separate channel with the correct protocol would be a plus.
Onboard Bluetooth for ShadowDash and the likes.
Joachim
1974 Jensen-Healey
1990 VW Caravelle Syncro - running MS3+X
2014 Ford Fiesta EcoBoost
1974 Jensen-Healey
1990 VW Caravelle Syncro - running MS3+X
2014 Ford Fiesta EcoBoost
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread
This would be a highly illegal thing. So don't even think about it.subwoofer wrote:OBD2 connection for standardized diagnostics. A must for stealth installs on newer cars where ODB2 must make sense and not give error codes to pass the MoT. I believe this to be CANbus, but an extra, separate channel with the correct protocol would be a plus.
Jean
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread
As a feature I see it would cause problems in certain markets, point taken. Though to my knowledge, where I live it is simply an MoT fail - not a criminal offense.racingmini_mtl wrote:This would be a highly illegal thing. So don't even think about it.
Btw, don't quite a few camera systems use OBD2 for performance data overlays?
Joachim
1974 Jensen-Healey
1990 VW Caravelle Syncro - running MS3+X
2014 Ford Fiesta EcoBoost
1974 Jensen-Healey
1990 VW Caravelle Syncro - running MS3+X
2014 Ford Fiesta EcoBoost
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread
Reporting true OBD2 runtime data would be fine I think (I was going to start a topic about it.) As Jean says though, faking emission results is fraudulent and not something we will be doing.
James
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread
In restrospect, it may have read that way, but faking emissions readings was not the intention. The intention was to provide a standard connection point for diagnostics.jsmcortina wrote:As Jean says though, faking emission results is fraudulent and not something we will be doing.
Joachim
1974 Jensen-Healey
1990 VW Caravelle Syncro - running MS3+X
2014 Ford Fiesta EcoBoost
1974 Jensen-Healey
1990 VW Caravelle Syncro - running MS3+X
2014 Ford Fiesta EcoBoost
Re: "MS4" wishlist thread
I believe that OBD2 data broadcast is very good. For OE-like cars, it means that any reputable shop is capable of reading the data that the user/tuner set to broadcast, and also allow the use of wireless adapters to use with widespread smartphone/tablet apps. But it should be a hardwire-limited broadcast only port, without access to the unit, therefore increasing the protection against unauthorized access (so wireless use won't present as a risk of invasion)
DBW is a nice idea, with redundand software safety system and brake priority over accelerator logic (something like if brake is ON for T>1.5s then Throttle max is 5%) then have the system certified from a 3rd party and ready to sell (this might be a nice candidate for canbus driven unit, having the high costs of certification and R&D dilluted in a platform that can be installed on MSextra, MS3 and MS4.
just another parenthesis: DBW may turn not only TCS, launch control and flat shift older strategies obsolete, but may lower the fuel consumption under partial load for turbo with boost control (reducing the pumping losses by lowering boost pressure, while the throttle body is wide open - remember TPS<100%), and allowing N/A engines with very high C/R run on lower octane fuel, limiting MAP on known knock zones (in Brazil, GM and VW uses these techniques to raise C/R up to 13:1 and still run on 87 AKI reliably, on 1.0L flex-fuel cars)
Bigger memory, with user scalable maps (up to 32x32 or what memory can handle - ieg: the memory limits the number of cells at 1024 cells, so I can use a 32x32 or a 512x2 or even a 16x16 - using simple commands on TunerStudio to while typing the number of rows, show the maximum colums available).
Very high quality WBO2 system, that is able to run Bosch and NTK sensors. (remember, this is worth at least $70 of wideband controller costs removed from a build). Maybe a canbus unit, to reduce the analog wiring losses)
SMD-only MB development, taking into account high vibration resistance, low power consumption and small package. (with a MS4extra port provision that allow a prototyping area, and future or optional addons).
Built-in diagnosis LEDs, for troubleshooting anywhere.
injector kill on software (to while on tunning have an emergency button) and on input, at least for beta DBW testers feel safe(er), even on cars with keyless start.
And a secondary (and independent, while on the same board) failsafe circuitry, for limp mode, with only the very essential circuits, for running alpha-n.
DBW is a nice idea, with redundand software safety system and brake priority over accelerator logic (something like if brake is ON for T>1.5s then Throttle max is 5%) then have the system certified from a 3rd party and ready to sell (this might be a nice candidate for canbus driven unit, having the high costs of certification and R&D dilluted in a platform that can be installed on MSextra, MS3 and MS4.
just another parenthesis: DBW may turn not only TCS, launch control and flat shift older strategies obsolete, but may lower the fuel consumption under partial load for turbo with boost control (reducing the pumping losses by lowering boost pressure, while the throttle body is wide open - remember TPS<100%), and allowing N/A engines with very high C/R run on lower octane fuel, limiting MAP on known knock zones (in Brazil, GM and VW uses these techniques to raise C/R up to 13:1 and still run on 87 AKI reliably, on 1.0L flex-fuel cars)
Bigger memory, with user scalable maps (up to 32x32 or what memory can handle - ieg: the memory limits the number of cells at 1024 cells, so I can use a 32x32 or a 512x2 or even a 16x16 - using simple commands on TunerStudio to while typing the number of rows, show the maximum colums available).
Very high quality WBO2 system, that is able to run Bosch and NTK sensors. (remember, this is worth at least $70 of wideband controller costs removed from a build). Maybe a canbus unit, to reduce the analog wiring losses)
SMD-only MB development, taking into account high vibration resistance, low power consumption and small package. (with a MS4extra port provision that allow a prototyping area, and future or optional addons).
Built-in diagnosis LEDs, for troubleshooting anywhere.
injector kill on software (to while on tunning have an emergency button) and on input, at least for beta DBW testers feel safe(er), even on cars with keyless start.
And a secondary (and independent, while on the same board) failsafe circuitry, for limp mode, with only the very essential circuits, for running alpha-n.
Re: "MS4" wishlist thread
Hi guys,
I won´t buy another MS until they provide ION SENSING capabilities. Also Auto-Tuning capabilities to generate a spark advance base map in a similar way is done with lambda readings for VE Table. And of course, real time advance correction for each cylinder.
This would be like having a Dyno on board!!!!!
ION SENSING and PLASMA JET IGNITION (6 ms high amp big kernel discharge: enough time to make mirroring work acuratedly, faster moisture burn and extended LEAN BURN limit). I'll deal with spark plug electroerosion: Denso non-resistive spark plug with iridium tip, modified using a welded tungsten washer for surface discharge, not a problem. ION SENSING and PLASMA can also allow using an "ultra lean moisture ECO mode".
Come on MS gurus!!! Take advantage from other aftermarket ECU's!!!!! Go ION SENSING!!!!
Regards,
Athal
I won´t buy another MS until they provide ION SENSING capabilities. Also Auto-Tuning capabilities to generate a spark advance base map in a similar way is done with lambda readings for VE Table. And of course, real time advance correction for each cylinder.
This would be like having a Dyno on board!!!!!
ION SENSING and PLASMA JET IGNITION (6 ms high amp big kernel discharge: enough time to make mirroring work acuratedly, faster moisture burn and extended LEAN BURN limit). I'll deal with spark plug electroerosion: Denso non-resistive spark plug with iridium tip, modified using a welded tungsten washer for surface discharge, not a problem. ION SENSING and PLASMA can also allow using an "ultra lean moisture ECO mode".
Come on MS gurus!!! Take advantage from other aftermarket ECU's!!!!! Go ION SENSING!!!!
Regards,
Athal
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread
That seems like recipe for disaster: Encouraging tuning without power measurement.athal wrote:Hi guys,
I won´t buy another MS until they provide ION SENSING capabilities. Also Auto-Tuning capabilities to generate a spark advance base map in a similar way is done with lambda readings for VE Table. And of course, real time advance correction for each cylinder.
This would be like having a Dyno on board!!!!!
ION SENSING and PLASMA JET IGNITION (6 ms high amp big kernel discharge: enough time to make mirroring work acuratedly, faster moisture burn and extended LEAN BURN limit). I'll deal with spark plug electroerosion: Denso non-resistive spark plug with iridium tip, modified using a welded tungsten washer for surface discharge, not a problem. ION SENSING and PLASMA can also allow using an "ultra lean moisture ECO mode".
Come on MS gurus!!! Take advantage from other aftermarket ECU's!!!!! Go ION SENSING!!!!
Regards,
Athal
Peter Florance
PF Tuning
81 BMW Euro 528i ESP Car
60-2 Wheel LS2 Coils, Low Z Inj
Co-Driver 1999 BMW E46 DSP car.
PF Tuning
81 BMW Euro 528i ESP Car
60-2 Wheel LS2 Coils, Low Z Inj
Co-Driver 1999 BMW E46 DSP car.
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread
Then you won't be buying another MS (or any other ECU for that matter). There are major issues with having a workable ion sensing peak detection for the whole operating range. Why do you think no one has it?athal wrote:I won´t buy another MS until they provide ION SENSING capabilities.
Jean
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread
Ion sense engine phase detection, knock detection and misfire detection should be within reach though. I don't know how much hardware is needed to support those functions for HD and SAAB coils.
Another feature that could come in handy is if all PWM outputs could have independent, freely selectable output frequencies. Easy to do in programmable hardware (SoC), a lot more difficult with a traditional MCU. Overkill for most applications, but you can never have too much overkill.
Another feature that could come in handy is if all PWM outputs could have independent, freely selectable output frequencies. Easy to do in programmable hardware (SoC), a lot more difficult with a traditional MCU. Overkill for most applications, but you can never have too much overkill.
Joachim
1974 Jensen-Healey
1990 VW Caravelle Syncro - running MS3+X
2014 Ford Fiesta EcoBoost
1974 Jensen-Healey
1990 VW Caravelle Syncro - running MS3+X
2014 Ford Fiesta EcoBoost
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread
Flexible Firing Order
Allow the ability to wire up your injector and ignition outputs without following the firing order, then set the firing order in software to make it work.
ie: INJ1/IGN1 to Cyl#1, INJ2/IGN2 to Cyl#2, INJ3/IGN3 to Cyl#3, INJ4/IGN4 to Cyl#4 etc etc
Then in TunerStudio, enter the engines firing order into a field (1,4,3,2) and the MS will do the rest (Making INJ1/IGN1 fire for Cyl#1, INJ4/IGN4 for Cyl#4 etc etc). This will make is a lot easier to wire up an MS and avoid a lot of those start up issues due to incorrect firing orders.
Allow the ability to wire up your injector and ignition outputs without following the firing order, then set the firing order in software to make it work.
ie: INJ1/IGN1 to Cyl#1, INJ2/IGN2 to Cyl#2, INJ3/IGN3 to Cyl#3, INJ4/IGN4 to Cyl#4 etc etc
Then in TunerStudio, enter the engines firing order into a field (1,4,3,2) and the MS will do the rest (Making INJ1/IGN1 fire for Cyl#1, INJ4/IGN4 for Cyl#4 etc etc). This will make is a lot easier to wire up an MS and avoid a lot of those start up issues due to incorrect firing orders.
'89 Toyota MR2 AW11 - 1MZFE 3L V6 - Need to finish car before ecu
'89 Toyota MR2 AW11 - 16V 4AGZE - DIYPNP 1.5v
'90 Toyota MR2 SW20 - 1MZFE 3L V6 - MS3X
'89 Toyota MR2 AW11 - 16V 4AGZE - DIYPNP 1.5v
'90 Toyota MR2 SW20 - 1MZFE 3L V6 - MS3X
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread
To be honest, I see no need for that one. Wire it right in the first place and it becomes a non-issue.
Megasquirt is not for use on pollution controlled vehicles. Any advice I give is for off road use only.
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread
There is one application for it, and that is in case of emergency you could substitute unused outputs for a fried one. There were a few cases of the MS3X injector drivers frying some time ago. But it's not the norm.
Joachim
1974 Jensen-Healey
1990 VW Caravelle Syncro - running MS3+X
2014 Ford Fiesta EcoBoost
1974 Jensen-Healey
1990 VW Caravelle Syncro - running MS3+X
2014 Ford Fiesta EcoBoost
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Re: "MS4" wishlist thread
One example I can think of is that Ford small block V8s have a couple different firming order versions, depending on the cam. This could let you swap one engine for another without modifying the harness.muythaibxr wrote:To be honest, I see no need for that one. Wire it right in the first place and it becomes a non-issue.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
Re: "MS4" wishlist thread
Yes, exactly!Matt Cramer wrote:One example I can think of is that Ford small block V8s have a couple different firming order versions, depending on the cam. This could let you swap one engine for another without modifying the harness.muythaibxr wrote:To be honest, I see no need for that one. Wire it right in the first place and it becomes a non-issue.
I'd also like to have the ability to run hi or low impedance injectors with no external mods.
1995 Ford Lightning. Dart based 427 Windsor, Novi 2000, full sequential, E-85, etc. MS3X/v3.57
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