Who loves Microsquirt ?

[jsmcortina]

I'm currently writing some of the MS2 manuals covering the range of MS2 products. One question in my mind is why we appear to see far fewer questions about Microsquirt? Is it because the pre-assembled product is just higher quality and requires less support (quite possible) or because it sells less units?

It seems quite suprising that it would sell less units seeing as it is nicer and cheaper than an assembled MS2/V357 or MS2/V30. It is also cheaper than an assembled MS1/V357 - why would anyone buy the old technology instead?

Interested to hear why customers are buying what they are.

James

[Hey_Allen]

I probably would have bought one when I initially purchased, if they'd actually been available!
I was seeing information about them, but no stock available at the time.

Seeing where my project is leading me now, I probably won't use one one my car just due to lack of I/O channels for fuel and spark, but may yet buy one for my bike if I ever decide to MS it.

If I weren't such a tinkerer, I probably would have been happy to go with one, but I initially bought my MS2V3 to keep my hands busy while deployed a few years back. Assembly kept my mind and hands occupied, which was well worth the cost!

[dontz125]

There are several feature flaws that had me looking first to the boxed MS, and later the uSM, for my own project (if it ever gets off the ground). Limited I/O isn't a fatal flaw, but it is a strike against it, the severity depending on the particular engine and layout. Singles and twins are generally happy, but a modern racer looking for COP ignition and sequential-staged injection for his inline 4 won't even take the time to laugh at it. I don't know how many people balked at the inability to swap maps via hardware, but that was a recent topic of discussion that you've only very recently resolved.

One of the biggest issues with the uS - and the entire B&G lineup, for that matter - when it comes to older bikes is the utter inability to deal with the long tooth trigger wheel. There were an enormous number of UJMs and sport bikes released in the 70s, 80s, and well into the 90s that used the classic 3-short + 1-long tooth pattern. Some had it on a discrete pulse wheel that could be replaced without much fanfare. Many had it on the alternator rotor / flywheel, with little to no room for modification without serious surgery and /or cu$tom part$. I'm a little surprised that this is still an issue; matt_gsxr came up with his wheel decoder and adapter circuit over 2 years ago, and I've seen nothing come of it from the devs. I've done some sims on LTSpice to simplify his circuit; I may be looking for a tester in the near future.

Incidentally, these older bikes almost universally have dumb wasted-spark coils. The elimination of the internal coil driver means that anyone wanting to control the ignition of their older ZX9 or CBR600 need to buy something else - either a coil driver module, or logic coil packs or logic COPs.

There are other things notably missing from a device marketed as "Squirt your Motorbike/PWC/Snowmobile!" While Neutral / Clutch / Sidestand safety interlock isn't a must-have, it's definitely a good idea. I am sufficiently convinced that a tip-over switch with delay is needed that I'm building - and selling! - this fairly critical piece of safety equipment.

The uS is nominally focused at the bikes, which often means the car guys overlook it. The problem comes when some car guys do look at it because of it's positive features - the tiny form, the updated VR system, the ease and simplicity of a fully assembled package - but then come to a screeching halt when they realise it has no stepper driver, no coil drivers and only two spark channels; only two injection channels means a limited ability to handle lo-z injectors.

The MicroSquirt was designed for bikes, but it would seem it was designed by car guys who had limited understanding of what a bike conversion would entail. As a result, it is well-suited for neither bike nor car, and the sales suffer as a result.

Ironically, I've been scolded by the mods over at microsquirt.com for advertising my accessories - I can advertise within reason on msefi.com because that's the DIY site, but the MicroSquirt is marketed to those wanting a turn-key installation. I find this astonishing, because the uS needs more external modules than the MS to function in its intended application.

[jsmcortina]

Four spark channels is easy, see the manual. There's a stepper add-on too. I was thinking about the long tooth recently too and have an OEM style schematic. Low-z isn't as big a deal these days.

But would you ever buy MS1 for more money instead?

James

[dontz125]

Four spark channels is easy, see the manual.

Heh. About three minutes after I posted that, I realised I was flip-flopping madly between Extra and B&G code in my thoughts while composing the post - "B&G code only has 2 spark channels!" "The Extra devs haven't incorporated the long tooth code!" I would however suggest that anyone drawn to the uS for its no-DIY-required aspect might not be interested in the Extra code, so the '2 channels' comment is still applicable, if not as broad-brushed as it came out in my post.

There's a stepper add-on too. I was thinking about the long tooth recently too and have an OEM style schematic. Low-z isn't as big a deal these days.

Interesting, but you can't really use 'Now playing!' and 'Coming soon!' features to wonder why people didn't buy the uS last year (and those are still features of that nasty DIY-ish Extra code) ... Lo-z injectors are still very much around, if not as prevalent as they once were; there are still discussions on the forum about resistor packs and dialing in PWM current control. There was even a recent autopsy-by-post that diagnosed flyback failure on a V2.2 board. (Slightly off topic, but in the flavour of older ideas - I just about dropped my coffee on my keyboard the first time I read a fellow's post about doing a new build with MS3/X and an EDIS module)

For the long-tooth, would you like to see what I've been scribbling at?

But would you ever buy MS1 for more money instead?

I was actually astonished just now, when I took a peek at DIY's prices for the assembled MS1 variants. I realise they have to pay the guys with the soldering irons, but - wow. It does however still come down to what you want it to do - if the $375 MS1/V3.57 does what you want and the $299 uS does NOT, due to I/O restrictions or whatever, then the fact that the uS processor is 1-2 orders of magnitude more capable is irrelevant. If the $269 MS1/V2.2 can do the job and the uS can't, it's a no-brainer.

If the uS really can be made to do what the average EFI'er (is there such a creature?) actually wants and MS1 or the even more $$ MS2 are outselling the uS, then the sales & marketing department has had a wardrobe malfunction.

[ewflyer]

I'm a motorcycle guy and I love my Microsquirts. I've had a Version 2 Microsquirt in my 2005 Kawasaki EX-250 for 5 years now and I'm currently building up a 1992 Suzuki GSF400 Bandit with a Version 3.

What's wrong with me? Am I not a discerning or demanding enough consumer?

(Yeah, I do have to admit that the lack of support, interest or feedback on the Denso Corporation long-tooth trigger wheel was a bit of a disappointment.)

[dontz125]

What's wrong with me? Am I not a discerning or demanding enough consumer?

Why no, not at all - you are however a masochist, and I believe James is modifying his MicroSquirt transmission code to operate a combination whipping / tickling machine just for people like you.

On a slightly more serious note, you are a DIY'er, and are willing and able to do what is necessary to make the uS work. I note that you are a regular denizen of this forum, this den of iniquity and free thinking. Many people are not, are looking for something a little less involved, and it is to those people that the nice folks at microsquirt.com are focussing their marketing efforts. I just don't think the uS as it stands is s good as it should be for that purpose.

[jsmcortina]

There's a stepper add-on too.

Interesting, but you can't really use 'Now playing!' and 'Coming soon!' features to wonder why people didn't buy the uS last year

It's a fair cop.

(and those are still features of that nasty DIY-ish Extra code) ...

I don't understand why anyone would use the MS2/BG code. I rarely look at it, but find it very confusing when I do.

Lo-z injectors are still very much around,

The (new) Microsquirt PDF manual shows how to connect a pair. (I'm going to bump that to four.)

I read a fellow's post about doing a new build with MS3/X and an EDIS module)

If it's there - use it. For a new user, using EDIS most certainly simplifies many things - especially on a Ford with 36-1, matching tooth#1 angle and matching coilpack. Yes, he's missing out on sequential etc. etc. but we all have to start somewhere.

For the long-tooth, would you like to see what I've been scribbling at?

Let's start a new topic.

I was actually astonished just now, when I took a peek at DIY's prices for the assembled MS1 variants. I realise they have to pay the guys with the soldering irons, but - wow. It does however still come down to what you want it to do - if the $375 MS1/V3.57 does what you want and the $299 uS does NOT

The V357 pre-assembled units are surely aimed at customers that do not want to build and customise their ECU, a similar customer to Microsquirt?
I would be interested to know what the difference in features is - remember that the $375 only gets you a basic fuel only MS1. Any spark outputs or custom I/O will cost extra.

If the uS really can be made to do what the average EFI'er (is there such a creature?) actually wants and MS1 or the even more $$ MS2 are outselling the uS, then the sales & marketing department has had a wardrobe malfunction.

I'd be interested to know what a pre-assembled MS1 or MS2 can do that Microsquirt cannot.
I think there's also an element of "old timers" (oh hell, that's me too) getting stuck in our ways and thinking that the DIY style mainboard is the "only way" and not fully embracing the Microsquirt e.g. the MSEXTRA manuals are very weak regarding it. I think that's a big missed opportunity and is in part why the first set of manuals I'm re-writing are focussed on the Microsquirt.

Ironically, I've been scolded by the mods over at microsquirt.com for advertising my accessories - I can advertise within reason on msefi.com because that's the DIY site, but the MicroSquirt is marketed to those wanting a turn-key installation. I find this astonishing, because the uS needs more external modules than the MS to function in its intended application.

As far as I am aware, that line of thinking is not shared by Bruce, the developers or any of the vendors. Go ahead and start a topic on this forum listing your add-ons.

James

[gboezio]

I have both V1 Microsquirt and MS3X, I also have tuned another Microsquirt V3 remotely, Now I checking to buy a Microsquirt or to use the old one to control a TRX450 engine, to be user friendly it would connect to the stock pulse gen and be running on it, but I don't think this is possible, there is two consecutive tooths on the flywheel, the huge gap will induce noise and false trigger, the pots on the older boards give more flexibility. a lot of Honda singles run on the pattern until the 09 CRF I think got 12-1, but still have an almost unmanagable compression delta RPM.
My VTR 1000 12-3 tooth wheel would not run either because of the zero crossing VR sensor, I ended up buying a 12 tooth and cut one off. The remote turbo CBR1100XX was a lot of trial and error and finally required a resistor after we cut a tooth off the 12 tooths wheel.

for a uninitiated buyer the information is a bit confusing to answer the question, will it work on my setup, I think that some more detailed info on how the inputs works, trigger voltage, max voltage, waveform. Typical outputs current, frequency.
Emphasis on Simple trigger and physical trigger voltage switches, maybe a whole trigger makeover...let me explain :

Having a window in Tuner studio with a crank wheel is displayed, where you could input the tooth angles in relation to TDC like a matrix and the ability to find itself in the matrix, say expect a pulse 50°BTDC and another at TDC, then calculate RPM on those 2 inputs.

And/Or a tooth log from a plugless cranking, where the user will indicate crank angles on events and define a crank rotation, the trigger voltage still need to be adjusted to have pure triggers of course, then add the cam above and choose the power stroke based on cam trigger, having this matrix going around, you could create a GM 24X from scratch and be able to fire the engine with less than a cycle on the starter.

I understand that this is code intensive, but it would be a break trough in user friendliness, specially for all those oddballs trigger that compose the motorcycle world.

I honestly don't mind having external MAP, but I agree that Ignitors may be required to drive motorcycle coils, on some models there are ignitors that can be reused, but on the TRX/CRF example it's inside the CDI

Right now I'm still wondering If I buy a MS2 MS3 or Microsquirt for the TRX, I wanted to either try to run a 7-5 wheel trigger or use the CDI output with a voltage divider.

[jsmcortina]

the pots on the older boards give more flexibility

My experience with providing on this forum is that they mostly just give user confusion?
Have you seen any installs where the existing MS2/V3 tach circuit worked and the Microsquirt one did not?

Having a window in Tuner studio with a crank wheel is displayed, where you could input the tooth angles in relation to TDC like a matrix, say expect a pulse 50°BTDC and another at TDC, then calculate RPM on those 2 inputs.

I don't see this being able to happen in any MS2 or MS3 product.

James

[gboezio]

My experience with providing on this forum is that they mostly just give user confusion?
Have you seen any installs where the existing MS2/V3 tach circuit worked and the Microsquirt one did not?

I'm not an expert, but mostly an average user, Microsquirt did fail on my VTR at 12-3, but if I had custom tailored the VR pulses, using resistors and pull up resistors, maybe I could have made it work (I got better in electronics since that time ), I'm guessing that it would be possible to trim the pots to get tach without external resistors.
But you are right that they are a source confusion due to their leverage on the trigger.

Maybe it's the motorcycle world that is difficult and Microsquirt is oriented to them.
The price do not matter, the user will choose what would work in less time to achieve his goals, if mods need to be done inside the case, it's very difficult on SMC.
If I give it another try, if I do I'll post back here.
But MS3 is pure genius, I loved it so much, that I don't mind forking the money to have it even if it's more expensive and an overkill, it has ultimate flexibility and I feel more confident that it has all the inputs and outputs I need, my builds are usually complex, I aim for dual VSS, traction control, active suspension, turbocharger and safety inputs.
I will also need 4 maps, since I use a complex turbo control with 2 tables and want to switch for different fuels.
On the CRB we ran out of inputs outputs, we added an external boost control, but in the end it works wonderfully.

[dontz125]

It might be interesting to see how your 12-3 VTR would work with the uS V3; it uses the same chip jbperf uses in his Dual VR board, and there have been several people who've found success with that circuit when the MS V3.0 circuit wasn't cooperating.

James - once again I'm swapping back and forth between codes; sorry. As to why people are using B&G code, I think the problem is not, "Why would someone not use the Extra code?" but rather "Why do so many people not know about the Extra code?"

[racingmini_mtl]

... but rather "Why do so many people not know about the Extra code?"

I think that vendors have to make an effort to steer people to it when talking about the Microsquirt. If you leave people to search for information, they will more likely find the B&G site which will lead to only knowing about the B&G code. Those sites obfuscate msextra as much as possible.

Jean

[gboezio]

It might be interesting to see how your 12-3 VTR would work with the uS V3; it uses the same chip jbperf uses in his Dual VR board, and there have been several people who've found success with that circuit when the MS V3.0 circuit wasn't cooperating.

James - once again I'm swapping back and forth between codes; sorry. As to why people are using B&G code, I think the problem is not, "Why would someone not use the Extra code?" but rather "Why do so many people not know about the Extra code?"

Exactly I have used the B&G code, works, but the Extra code really makes it alive and useable, what people do to their powersport machines, they race it, so launch control, flat shift, all the boost control options are just awesome, I have found out about the extra code by someone that knows someone...
Overall it's a nice ECU, maybe for the simpler projects

For the VTR maybe they have fixed it, I can't find much infos on my V1 uS and extra code, I hope I can run it, it has a 5 Years old tune in it.

[dontz125]

For the VTR maybe they have fixed it, I can't find much infos on my V1 uS and extra code, I hope I can run it, it has a 5 Years old tune in it.

The V1 and V3 have the same processor, but very different VR filter circuitry. One gotcha if you do swap to the V3 is you'll either need logic coils or a coil driver module - the coil drivers were removed from the V3.

[JoseMiguel]

I really like the microsquirt, but i still see it as a bike oriented product. I rather choose the flexibility from a ms2 in standard form.

Then again, ill love to have a microsquirt designed to rivalize other options with true advanced features for the 4 cyl crowd. Something like an intermediate product for people that think that a ms3pro is overkill or out of the budget. Features like:

-the better tach, no hardware mode input design currently avaliable in microsq and ms3 pro
-4 high impedance injector outputs, ready for 4 cyl sequential
-4 logic level ignition outputs
-dedicated cam input ready for use
-a few programmable outputs for driving relays
-a few inputs for things like launch control

All this in a package similar to the actual microsquirt, using automotive grade amp connector (no more printer port). That would be a killer product which could potentially sell many many units.

[24c]

I was an early MicroSquirt adopter, because it was cost effective. I've had v1, v2 & v3 versions, and at first I used the B&G code. I like the small form factor, and I understand the issue with using coil drivers built into the v1 & v2 MicroSquirts "contaminating" the low voltage circuits inside, so it was logical to see these removed. However the single biggest flaw, with the v2 was the second VRIN2 input and it's shared ground. On my four cylinder wasted spark motorcycle engine this was a major stumbling block, as I couldn't get a high enough VR voltage generated at cranking RPMs. However the v3 version is a very cost effective, and useful unit for older generation 4 cylinder motorcycles (nearly all have wasted spark, so only need two inputs), and I don't necessarily agree you need to build in tip over functions either (not dissing), as these are available as discrete units, and all the neutral light, clutch functions can work via a relay to interrupt power to the MicroSquirt.

I reckon a MicroSquirt, a Fiat MAP sensor (£12) and the VW type 4 x single fire coil (£40) is tremendous value compared to competing systems by itself, but factor in either firmware developers efforts, and it's even better value. Chuck in Phil's TunerStudio, and you've got a hugely capable & flexible product for most petrol heads. Obviously nowadays there are more capable OEM ECUs that do other bits like controlling secondary injectors, idle stepper motors, PWM fuel supply which are definitely needed if you want to use a later generation engine like a Yamaha R1, so maybe this is a direction for future developments.

I have used both versions of the firmwares and B&G's is more than adequate, but have an unsupported trigger wheel, and you are on your own. However, for that there is an MSExtra option and without James' help & MSExtra, I wouldn't have been able to get the YZF1000/FZR1000 crank trigger to work, so I was very pleased to have this facility. Once most people go to MSExtra I don't think they go back, and I do think MSExtra is organised (in Tunerstudio) in a slightly more user friendly format.

I am currently using the MicroSquirts v2 & v3 in my twin plugged horizontal twin cylinder engine, and they are working fine using both firmwares in "bench simulation" mode. I am just refining the trigger wheels and timing cover conversions (camshaft based trigger wheel).

The trigger flaws still exist in the MicroSquirt module, but using the 10 pin J2 add in corrects this ground fault with VRs,(as does Jean's excellent VR conditioning board), but if you use use Hall sensors with pull ups to ramp up the voltage, these faults can be overcome. I hope to use the module board in a custom ECU case later this year, as this is the best value system in my opinion.

Mike

PS I have also used some other low cost programmable units too and one, an Imfsoft product, allows you to write or define your own trigger wheel
I would like to see a custom trigger wheel detail, done in a separate program, and then used as a plug in...or perhaps, if there is a default mode called "custom" in the trigger wheel settings, it opens a "custom" dialog box where you can input data in a controlled fashion, but I think this is outside how the original system works.
BTW, most of the long trigger wheels I see, can be easily modified, or replaced with a laser cut/ machined wheel, and use one of the two VR sensors found on the OEM set up, and get an adequate result especially compared to the OEM set up. When you can't the matt_gsxr workaround, or yours dontz125 would be sufficient.

[racingmini_mtl]

I really like the microsquirt, but i still see it as a bike oriented product. I rather choose the flexibility from a ms2 in standard form.

Then again, ill love to have a microsquirt designed to rivalize other options with true advanced features for the 4 cyl crowd. Something like an intermediate product for people that think that a ms3pro is overkill or out of the budget. Features like:

-the better tach, no hardware mode input design currently avaliable in microsq and ms3 pro
-4 high impedance injector outputs, ready for 4 cyl sequential
-4 logic level ignition outputs
-dedicated cam input ready for use
-a few programmable outputs for driving relays
-a few inputs for things like launch control

All this in a package similar to the actual microsquirt, using automotive grade amp connector (no more printer port). That would be a killer product which could potentially sell many many units.

I don't want to hijack the thread (since it is based on the Microsquirt module, it's not completely off-topic) but this is exactly what you're describing: http://forum.jbperf.com/viewtopic.php?f ... t=20#p3693. And the response has been very underwhelming.

Jean

[R100RT]

I love my Microsquirts!
Of major importance for me was the small package size. Keeping the original simple lines and appearance of a motorbike (even while fully corrupting it with forced induction and myriad of other devices ) is challenging and small footprint add ons are valuable.
All of the above comments are valid, and challenges can and do exist, but I have found solutions to each & every one by researching the forums and manuals, learning invaluable lessons in the process.
The next big step for me would be to apply the V3 device towards the newer BMW engine which are already fuel injected. "Oilheads" in particular represent a major population in North America where vagueness of fuel control, and surging issues have created greif for many and a longing for a plugin solution - and I forsee a usable & affordable item would represent significant sales potential and popularity. My semi serious initial thoughts toward that project would be to install a unit onto an existing bike piggyback fashion, in order to log all manner of operation and behaviour prior to solving their funky "twin hall sensor" crank driven device with slotted wheel that if usable could allow for plug'n play approach.
Just thoughts, but in support again of the Microsquirt product.

[JoseMiguel]

I really like the microsquirt, but i still see it as a bike oriented product. I rather choose the flexibility from a ms2 in standard form.

Then again, ill love to have a microsquirt designed to rivalize other options with true advanced features for the 4 cyl crowd. Something like an intermediate product for people that think that a ms3pro is overkill or out of the budget. Features like:

-the better tach, no hardware mode input design currently avaliable in microsq and ms3 pro
-4 high impedance injector outputs, ready for 4 cyl sequential
-4 logic level ignition outputs
-dedicated cam input ready for use
-a few programmable outputs for driving relays
-a few inputs for things like launch control

All this in a package similar to the actual microsquirt, using automotive grade amp connector (no more printer port). That would be a killer product which could potentially sell many many units.

I don't want to hijack the thread (since it is based on the Microsquirt module, it's not completely off-topic) but this is exactly what you're describing: http://forum.jbperf.com/viewtopic.php?f ... t=20#p3693. And the response has been very underwhelming.

Jean

I saw your product and it is 95% what I was expecting. I would really like to see it as a finished, ready to go product with a high quality harness. I hope it gets to that point.