New MS/MJ user - bit confused what to buy.

[bluphoto]

I am currently building a slightly modified 1967 triumph GT6 and wondered if you could help me choose a suitable MJ/MS ECU package for use with the Triumph inline-six 2.5 engine installed in it.

I have triple Weber DCOE40 (151) carburettors fitted, and a high performance cam. I have no vacuum outlet from the manifolds but these carburettors do come with a vacuum outlet (albeit they are blanked off with an M6 plug). I think a MAP sensor would actually be a simpler installation than a TPS sensor in this case as the linkages all go to the right side of the carbs (looking from the trumpet end) and therefore a TPS sensor would have to go on the left – availability issues?)

For futureproofing my installation, I MAY want to install fuel injection in years to come – either using dedicated throttle bodies, or using the DCOE’s as throttle bodies only. To this end, I think a Megasquirt setup would be the most appropriate (as opposed to MJ) , although right now I would be using it for ignition control only.

So does the standard system still use the distributor, and if so, how does it control the advance of the spark (without “moving” the distributor plate)? I’m very tempted to go down the “coil-on-plug” route and use the distributor to drive my mechanical tacho only (maybe machining an aluminium “blank” distributor cap). My wifes VW Golf mk5 uses COP, and it seems that the modules are readily available and negate the need for plug leads etc.

The Megasquirt people in the UK asked me if I had tried a COP on my car [I'm strill trying to work out how anyone could have thought that might have even been possible], and that it might not be the best system for the car and that an EDIS & dizzy setup would be better. Can any of you tell me why that might be the case? [When I asked, he ahe suggested I just "ask in the forums"]. I'd think it would be a neater install using COP.

Any thoughts are appreciated.
Guy

[Ollie8974]

I will try to answer some of your questions.
First off start by reading the Manuals linked at the top of the page.
Check Philip Ringwood's excellent YouTube videos at EXTRAEFI.CO.UK.
I assume you are in the UK.
For all you want to do I would suggest the MS3X version.
Questions to ask yourself.

1. Is this family of engines still produced in a Fuel injected version.
If so visit a local recycling yard and acquire the Fuel injection parts.
There you go jsmcortina jumped in His advice is more knowledgeable than mine.

[jsmcortina]

I would recommend adding a TPS.

Last year I worked on a Westfield with individual throttle bodies. I added MAP takeoffs to each throttle (used MIG tips) and Teed them together. The car runs "ITB" mode which is an automatic blend of TPS and MAP. It tuned nicely on the dyno.

James

[Matt Cramer]

I have triple Weber DCOE40 (151) carburettors fitted, and a high performance cam. I have no vacuum outlet from the manifolds but these carburettors do come with a vacuum outlet (albeit they are blanked off with an M6 plug). I think a MAP sensor would actually be a simpler installation than a TPS sensor in this case as the linkages all go to the right side of the carbs.

It probably would. You could use a vacuum distribution block to get a signal from all the carbs.

For futureproofing my installation, I MAY want to install fuel injection in years to come – either using dedicated throttle bodies, or using the DCOE’s as throttle bodies only. To this end, I think a Megasquirt setup would be the most appropriate (as opposed to MJ) , although right now I would be using it for ignition control only.

A spark-only MegaSquirt installation is pretty simple; you just leave the fuel outputs disconnected.

Note that MegaJolt may have a similar name, but is not a MegaSquirt product - more like "MegaSquirt inspired". It has no relationship to anything in the MegaSquirt line.

So does the standard system still use the distributor, and if so, how does it control the advance of the spark (without “moving” the distributor plate)?

That is one way of controlling timing. You would use a sensor that does not change its position with RPM - either a crank trigger or distributor with no advance mechanism. If using a distributor, you'd need a wide enough rotor that it can get the spark to the tower through the whole range of advance angles you are running.

The Megasquirt people in the UK asked me if I had tried a COP on my car [I'm strill trying to work out how anyone could have thought that might have even been possible],

Does it seem impossible in that the fabrication to install the sensors looks daunting, or that the spark plugs are located too close to the exhaust manifold to allow mounting a coil to them directly? If it's the latter, a common approach is a "coil near plug" ignition, where there are individual coils with short plug wires. This is a common approach on American pushrod V8s.

[bluphoto]

Thanks guys. To answer some of your queries.
Ollie:

• Will read the manuals (already started) and watch the youtube videos, thanks
  Yes, I'm in Aberdeenshire
  MS3X - because that's the only one which allows COP maybe??? Is that the "budget" version? Is this more suitable them MS2?
  Sorry, are you asking if the Triumph inline-six is still in production in a fuel injected version? Afraid not. These went out of production almost forty years ago when the 2000/2500 big saloons ended production. Also, really don't want to go down the triumph PI route, and the whole new weber DCOE setup would need to be ditched

JSMCortina:

• Adding a TPS. Is that to make it simpler, more stable, more economical/powerful, cheaper?
  WeberDCOE40-151 has a vacuum takeoff point on each choke so no real need to fabricate or modify anything other than a small plenum chamber maybe.
  ... looking forward to reading about your car.

Matt:

• The impossibility from my point of view is that he has asked me if I had tried a COP module (not a COP "system") on my engine, I don't see how this would work having a distributor with five HT leads/plugs and the 6th plug with a COP module on it, not connected to anything!?!?! Maybe he thought I should connect my sixth HT lead to it??? Plenty space for COP plugs
  Not my car, but same engine and clearance... (this is a Mk3, mine is a Mk1)
  

Any ideas why a COP system might "not be suitable" for a simple engine like this? I'd like to avoid HT leads altogether, which is why I fancy the COP system. Also not keen on the EDIS approach.

many thanks
Guy

[Matt Cramer]

That engine looks like it would have no trouble putting the coils on the spark plugs - if the exhaust manifold was on the same side as the spark plugs, that would have been another story.

[elaw]

Guy,

Just a few random points...

The MS2 is the "budget product" compared to the MS3 which is the higher-end (but better in many ways) system. The MS3X card is an add-on to the MS3 which provides a lot of extra I/O, including separate outputs to drive up to 8 coils and 8 injectors. It would be the easiest way to get going with COP (or CNP "coil near plug") but if you're willing to do some customization, it can be done with the MS2 (or MS3 without MS3X) also.

Re COP/CNP, in general I'm 110% in favor of the idea... coils and distributors were nice in 1920 but things have changed a bit since then. In your case there's one consideration that points away from COP and that's how the coils will be supported mechanically. The coils used for COP almost universally are used on 4- (or 5-)valve-per-cylinder engines with twin overhead camshafts and spark plugs which are central to the combustion chamber. That design provides a nice "valley" between the camshafts for the coils to sit in. In the case of your engine, the coils will be dangling off to the side and will have to be supported somehow. It's absolutely possible, but kind of difficult and would look really goofy if you care about that kind of thing. If I had an engine like yours I'd consider 3 other options: coils (like the popular "LSx" type) mounted on or near the valve cover with short wires going to the plugs, the same type of coils mounted on the firewall with longer wires going to the plugs, or a "wasted spark coil pack" made for a 6-cylinder engine which would have 3 coils and 6 HT connections.

As for a throttle-position sensor, if you're only using the Megasquirt for spark control it would not be a big deal... transients usually aren't a factor with spark control and you can just use MAP to read the load on the engine. But in the future if you want to control fuel also, a TPS is much more valuable as it can be used to control acceleration enrichment. You *can* do that just with a MAP signal but in general it doesn't work as well.

Getting back to ignition for a moment, one thing you'll need to consider if you go COP/CNP is how the Megasquirt will be triggered. You can *not* use COP/CNP with a distributor trigger - the system needs to know the position of the crankshaft to know which coil to fire, and therefore a crank trigger setup is needed. In addition, if you're using a setup with 6 separate coils firing individually, you'll need a cam sensor too (often a distributor can be modified to provide this signal). If you use a wasted-spark arrangement (3 coils, each firing two cylinders), a cam sensor is not required. MS3 does also have a mode called "wasted-COP" which supports 6 coil outputs but fires them in pairs and thus does not require a cam sensor. And come to think of it, you could do the same with MS2 just by wiring each of 3 trigger outputs to two coils.

[jsmcortina]

Remember that for COP you need a crank trigger (e.g. a 36-1 wheel on the crank pulley) and a cam pulse.

James

[bluphoto]

Great, so now I'm liking the sound of the MS2 with the LSx type mini coils mounted between each plug. Would use integrated MAP sensor with 36-1 cps mounted behind the crank pulley.
What kind of (UK) car can I get those coils off?

Distributor modified to give cam position with a custom machined cap.

Does that sound fair enough?

[Ollie8974]

36-1 Trigger wheel check Ford products with EDIS.
Yes, LSx coils wired in pairs, or Ford EDIS coils.

[bluphoto]

Really don't want to go down the Ford EDIS module & coil pack route - want to avoid long HT leads.
What kind of car do the LS-x coils come from?

[elaw]

Those coils are actually a "family" with several different variants, and have been used on a large number of GM V8 engines, and possibly V6s also? I think their original use was on Corvettes but I'm not 100% sure of that. If you google "D585 coil", "D514a coil" or "D581 coil" you'll get a lot of results.

I can also say from experience that there are a lot of Chinese knockoffs of those coils on the market and not all are good quality. I installed a set of 5 on my Audi and ended up with 3 cylinders that misfired under boost. I bought another set of (ostensibly identical) coils from a more reputable supplier, installed them, and had zero problems.

This is one example: http://www.amazon.com/ACDelco-D585-Igni ... B000BYD3Y0. Marc at EFI Express also sells them, although they're not listed on his website - you have to contact him by email: http://www.efiexpress.com/catalog/ - he's the source of my second set of coils (the ones that worked) and I know he tests each one personally.

Of course both of those sources are in the USA so shipping cost may be a little crazy - hopefully you can find a source closer to home!

[Ollie8974]

Really don't want to go down the Ford EDIS module & coil pack route - want to avoid long HT leads.
What kind of car do the LS-x coils come from?

MS can fire the EDIS coils in wasted spark with out using the Module.

[DaveEFI]

Really don't want to go down the Ford EDIS module & coil pack route - want to avoid long HT leads.
What kind of car do the LS-x coils come from?

The LS1 coils are often mentioned on here as they are cheap as chips used in the US - but sadly not in the UK. However, MS is so flexible you could use pretty well any alternative. COP come in two basic types - with built in ignitor, or just a plain coil which needs an external ignitor. The ignitor is basically just a 'transistor' which converts a logic (or whatever) switching signal into a high current one to drive the coil.

The beauty of EDIS for our sort of use is it is a system which works standalone at fixed advance. MS simply controls the advance curve. Making installation and troubleshooting as easy as it comes.

Perhaps your biggest choice is whether you want to go batch or sequential. For sequential you'll need a cam position sensor. Normally a modified dizzy on an old engine design.
A crank trigger wheel and sensor is the best way to go for both. With just a crank sensor you'd also be restricted to wasted spark.

[bluphoto]

Would these be any good?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mazda-RX-8-Coup ... =rx8+coils

[elaw]

Well I'll toss out two things...

1) The ebay listing doesn't mention a manufacturer nor where the coils were made. There are a lot of cheap "made in China" coils out there that sometimes work fine... and sometimes don't. Personally I'd contact the seller and ask where they're made - if you get no answer or the answer is "China", maybe look elsewhere.

2) You're going to need some technical info on any coils you use in order to get them working. What the connector pinout is, what mating connector to use, dwell settings, and if it's not meant to sit directly on the plug (and those look like they aren't) what HT wire or HT connector you'll need to mate to them.

I guess what I'm saying with #2 is if you can find someone here or on another forum who can supply the info, or get it from google (I tried quickly and didn't find much), you're in good shape. Otherwise you might be better off with something that people here have experience with so you can get the info you need to make them work.

[Healey3000]

Would these be any good?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mazda-RX-8-Coup ... =rx8+coils

I've been looking at those very coils with interest too. However, if you search for "Rx-8 upgrades", you'll find that these original coils have a penchant for early failure. Folks are upgrading to, you guessed it, the LSx family of coils.

I like how compact the RX-8 coils are as I'm having issues finding a good way to mount the LSx coils. The nice thing about the LSx coils, other than reliability is that they are well documented for our purposes.