CIS injection change to megasquirt

[1986 scirocco]

hello all. I'm looking for advice on changing to efi from cis. the engine is a 2.0l with a highly modified 1.8l solid lifter 8 valve head. the current injection system consists of vovlo metering and neuspeed throttle body feeding through a audi 5000 intake that has been shortened the fuel pressure has been turned up to provide enough fuel when the schrick 288 cam is in it upper range. the downfall is the 10 mpg. i have gone back to a gti cam which is much better for daily driving but i would like to change to efi. i would appreciate any feedback. thank you.

[elaw]

From your screen name and the description I assume this is a VAG motor?

One challenge will be mounting EFI injectors to the intake and setting up a fuel rail and regulator to feed them. Is there a VAG intake manifold designed for EFI that will fit? If so, using it should make solving that problem fairly easy.

Next you'll need to figure out what triggering arrangement you want. Assuming the car now has a distributor, you can keep that, and batch-fire the injectors. Or for an upgraded setup, you can set up crank and cam sensors which enables you to use sequential injection and/or coil-on-plug or coil-per-plug ignition.

You'll also want a potentiometer-type throttle position sensor. Best bet there would be to find a throttle body from a later VW/Audi product that would bolt up and have the correct type of sensor on it already. I think a TB from an Audi 7A motor would work, I'm sure there are others.

And you'll need a coolant-temp sensor. Again the best bet is to see if you can use a sensor from an EFI version of your motor.

Re the fuel system, I have a CIS(-E) car converted to Megasquirt and am using the OE fuel pump and accumulator, and it works fine. So you should be able to hook into the existing fuel feed & return lines under the hood and connect them to your new injector setup.

Depending on how aggressive your cam is, for fuel metering you can use manifold pressure, "alpha-N" which uses throttle position and RPM, or a mass airflow sensor in which case of course you'd need the MAF sensor (Megasquirts have manifold-pressure sensors included).

[1986 scirocco]

Thank you for your reply. The block is 2.0l aba. I found the throttle body you mentioned. I need to build a spacer to provide clearance for the bottom lever to clear the intake. Presently the dizzy thats in it is a modified rabbit one with mechanical advance and a 4 hall sender. I took the complete injection system off a 94 golf and physically the fuel rail lines up. I know I have to find new injector cups to fit new style injectors. I will do more homework to better understand the crank and cam sensors you mentioned. I spoke with a local shop racing greed that is familiar with megasquirt so I have support that way as well. The tuner said I should get a fixed dizzy with 1 hall sender so I did that.

I thank you for your time with this and I will keep notes as I go along. I broke my jeep yesterday though while I was in the bush with friends and it needs some love. What system part # do you recommend I research? Happy new year and speak soon.

[bradyzq]

Your ABA bottom end should already have a 60-2 trigger wheel on the crank. The sensor should plug in to the block. IIRC, it's on the front of the engine and is a pain to access.

[1986 scirocco]

Thank you guys once again. My aba block does have a crank sensor and it was a pain to locate. The wires had been cut making it harder to locate. I have ordered the crank sensor. I am getting the injectors. So to recap. I have the tps the cps and the injectors and fuel rail. I need to find the adaptive fittings from the existing fuel lines to AN style. My other question comes down to the cam sensor. I have a 1 window fixed dizzy and a 4 window dizzy. Which would be best for this application?

I have also ordered the proper injector cups to convert to ev1 style injectors. It is so nice to have this support from people I dont know so many thanks. Once i figure out how to post some pics I will. Cheers.

[elaw]

Definitely the 1-window dizzy. You want 1 pulse per cam rotation, and that's what you'll get with the single window.

[piledriver]

I picked up a G60 fuel rail and valve cover to do the same.
The G60 valve cover has mounting bosses for the matching rail.
Had to drill the holes out in the CIS head a bit for the fuel to pass through, but the proper injectors have relatively long nozzles.
(sadly had to replace the solid lifter GTi head with a hydro, but the price was right, think it really needs a slightly larger oil pump with hydros)

[mickeymarrows]

Do you want sequential injection? Because if you're happy with batch firing then you don't need the cam sensor..

However, I have a very similar sounding engine (head is 86 Scirocco CIS with Schrick 308) and am changing from batch fire to sequential. I'm removing the dizzy completely and using coil packs from an AKL crossflow (out of a new beetle). The AKL also has a cam position sensor built into the cam pulley which I'm planning to adapt to fit. The cam sensor uses a poll wheel (180 degrees open, 180 degrees closed) which makes setting up sequential injection easy when combined with the 60-2 crank position sensor. On the 2.0 crossflow the wheel has multiple windows, but should be easy to modify.

The cam sensor and wheel can be clearly seen here:

http://www.justanswer.com/vw-volkswagen ... shaft.html
http://www.2carpros.com/questions/2001- ... ton-sensor

Obviously the wheel will need to be removed from the stock cam pully and attached to my adjustable unit.

I bought the AKL engine complete for £250 which means I got the cam sensor, crank sensor, coil pack and plug leads and all the electrical connectors. I then removed and sold the crossflow head for £250!

[piledriver]

Does the AKL use a different oil pump drive setup? (1.6L?)
(not via the distributor like the older 8V?)

I must confess, I probably would have kept the crossflow head etc and stuck ITBs on it.
IIRC on the later 2Ls over here the counterflow exhaust bolts up, same on the AKL?

[mickeymarrows]

Yeah the AKL I have is the later alloy block like the 20vt. I bought it originally to swap into my 82 Jetta but it never happened. Then when I was looking at converting my Scirocco to sequential injection (to help with lumpy cam) I realised that fitting a cam position sensor to an 8v is tricky, until I spotted the one on the AKL in the corner of my shop.

P.S cross flows are too easy.. Real men do it the hard way.. With counterflow..

[1986 scirocco]

I'm loving the posts. I purchased the injector cups from vw so i'm 1 step closer. I emailed the tech support to ask which system would work for the application. They have recommended ms3-pro and the original ms-3. Whats the thoughts about the differences between them?

[mickeymarrows]

I'm a luddite and still use MS2-Extra so cannot comment on the pro's and con's of MS3

[elaw]

I'm loving the posts. I purchased the injector cups from vw so i'm 1 step closer. I emailed the tech support to ask which system would work for the application. They have recommended ms3-pro and the original ms-3. Whats the thoughts about the differences between them?

I think the answer to that question lies in what you want, how much work you're willing to do, and how much money you want to spend.

The MS3pro is a fully-assembled unit with all the "bells and whistles", in a rugged waterproof case. Basically you just wire it up to the car and it works. But it's pretty spendy.

The opposite end of the MS3 spectrum would be a basic MS3 system which you can buy as a kit and assemble yourself for considerably less $$. You can then buy and add features as you wish: the MS3X expansion card, the real-time-clock module, and the knock sensor module. All those things require work to install and wire, but even if you get everything you'll have spent less than for the pro model.

The above is the setup I have - a v3.0 mainboard system that originally came with an MS2 processor, that I've upgraded with the MS3 processor, MS3X, and the knock and RTC modules. Personally I love it - it's incredibly capable and flexible. And its inability to run while submerged in water so far has not been a problem.

[piledriver]

You will definitely want the rtc module if you go ms3, makes the SDcard logging useful long term.

If its a high compression motor, the knock module does work, and can now retard per-cylinder, at least on recent pre-1.4 firmware.

That's ~$150 worth of add-ons, but you do still come out ahead cost wise.
Whatever you do, get the MS3 case instead of the std case if you go MS2, saves $ when you upgrade.

The MS3 has a shedload of features over MS2, i was missing them seriously recently when I had to swap the daughtercards out briefly.
The MS2+MS2xT+MS3x combo DID come in handy and work quite well when I needed it, but the cost delta between the MS2 CPU and MS3 is not that much now.

[mickeymarrows]

When I'm feeling flush I'll probably upgrade my MS2's to MS3's, just like I did when they were MS1's..

The selling points for me being the USB and SD logger..

For a fresh build MS3 is the way to go though...

[1986 scirocco]

Thanks for the input. The costs are a factor and makes the decision harder. Be nice to have it all. I spoke with a friend who does tuning and has a ton of experience with these systems. He suggested that sequential injection has limited benefit when compared to cost difference in the control system. I purchased a new crank sensor and am working on the style of injector that would deal with the issue of the vw style not sitting "deep" enough into the port. I would like to not take head apart again as it just recently been gone over. I am going to look into the g60 valve cover and fuel rail and see if I can find one. Cheers I will keep posting.

[mickeymarrows]

Thanks for the input. The costs are a factor and makes the decision harder. Be nice to have it all. I spoke with a friend who does tuning and has a ton of experience with these systems. He suggested that sequential injection has limited benefit when compared to cost difference in the control system. I purchased a new crank sensor and am working on the style of injector that would deal with the issue of the vw style not sitting "deep" enough into the port. I would like to not take head apart again as it just recently been gone over. I am going to look into the g60 valve cover and fuel rail and see if I can find one. Cheers I will keep posting.

You don't have to find a G60 fuel rail, all 8v GTI's from 1988 to 1991 have the same fuel rail.. only the injectors changed (flow rate)

I'm curious about your issue with the injectors not sitting deep enough as that is the same with all electronic injected VW/audi heads, mine included, and the injector depth is not an issue. Unless, somehow, you don't have the correct injector seats...

[piledriver]

Thanks for the input. The costs are a factor and makes the decision harder. Be nice to have it all. I spoke with a friend who does tuning and has a ton of experience with these systems. He suggested that sequential injection has limited benefit when compared to cost difference in the control system. I purchased a new crank sensor and am working on the style of injector that would deal with the issue of the vw style not sitting "deep" enough into the port. I would like to not take head apart again as it just recently been gone over. I am going to look into the g60 valve cover and fuel rail and see if I can find one. Cheers I will keep posting.

You don't have to find a G60 fuel rail, all 8v GTI's from 1988 to 1991 have the same fuel rail.. only the injectors changed (flow rate)

I'm curious about your issue with the injectors not sitting deep enough as that is the same with all electronic injected VW/audi heads, mine included, and the injector depth is not an issue. Unless, somehow, you don't have the correct injector seats...

I have a 1.8L 8v, a G60 valve cover and its bypass TB setup, a Mazda Millenia supercharger and a welder.
Wat could possibly go wrong?

...and you need a G60 rail to bolt to it.

It was actually more of an issue on my part converting a late head onto a GTI motor (86 Cabby) w/CIS--- the holes were not large enough for the shrouded CIS injectors, and even after tossing the shrouds, still needed a touch more room to pass.

The factory injectors for at least the 1.8L 8V heads have ~30mm of nozzle past the injector body.
CIS injectors are much longer, and still barely protruded into the ports.
Use wrong short nozzle or wide spray cone injectors on these heads all your fuel will wash down the injector bore and dribble into the ports.

[mickeymarrows]

...and you need a G60 rail to bolt to it.

No you don't, G60 fuel rails are the same as other Digifant 8v rails, the only difference is injector flow. The fuel rail doesn't bolt to the valve cover, it bolts to the back of the head.

It was actually more of an issue on my part converting a late head onto a GTI motor (86 Cabby) w/CIS--- the holes were not large enough for the shrouded CIS injectors, and even after tossing the shrouds, still needed a touch more room to pass.

The factory injectors for at least the 1.8L 8V heads have ~30mm of nozzle past the injector body.
CIS injectors are much longer, and still barely protruded into the ports.
Use wrong short nozzle or wide spray cone injectors on these heads all your fuel will wash down the injector bore and dribble into the ports.

If you remove the CIS injector seats (long or short depending on year) and then screw in digifant injector seats, 037 133 555A, then the injector nozzle is exactly where it is on the digifant/G60 head so any normal Bosch EV1 injectors can be used. Personally I use Mustang injectors

[piledriver]

You are correct, tried fitting it up and I'll have to fabricate a rail mount, as the CIS manifold lacks the mounting provisions.
The machined notches on the G60 valve cover take brackets the injector harness sits on?
I might mod those to also retain the fuel rail.
(Engine is still CIS)

The CIS injectors would not slide into the injector bores in the later head casting, it came with no injector cups, so I swapped them over.
Fortunately I figured this out before fitting the head and was able to drill them out.
I didn't dare drill them out to the same size with room for the air shrouds.