'68 Datsun Roadster w/KA24de, need a little info for startup

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cortina042
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'68 Datsun Roadster w/KA24de, need a little info for startup

Post by cortina042 »

Hey everyone,
I’m in need of some guidance. I have a ’68 Datsun Roadster that I’ve installed a KA24DE into. It’s been running perfectly for the last year and a half and decided to install MS3/MS3x v3.57.
All of the wiring is done (I hope). I have good trigger signals in TS and have installed the trigger wheel for DIY.
Here’s the problem(s):
1. No spark at the plugs. Have power to coil (+) and coil (-) goes to pin 36 on MS3 main harness connector.
2. When I key-on I currently don’t see any LED’s on inside the MS box (and I’m sure that this the cause of #1) I have JP1 jumpered on 1-2 position, J1 is jumpered on 3-4 position, I installed a 1K ohm resistor in the R57 slot, and I have jumpered JP7 (does this jumper give the secondary trigger the pull-up?)
3. Is the MS3 able to fire the stock coil w/o an ignitor? I haven’t found a wiring schematic specific for MS3 and a stock ignition for KA24DE only MS1 and MS2, but I made the assumption that it’s similar with MS3 except in the pull-ups for primary and secondary triggers?
4. In TS, I cannot find a definitive setting for spark output with stock ignition. Should I set it Going High/ Inverted?
These are things that DIY said to do when using their trigger disc.
So, these are just a few items that I haven’t been able to find myself and was hoping that there are some 240sx guys that have overcome some of these.
First though, I think I need to get the LED’s to light, anything that I can check power wise on the board to see if the board is the issue (assuming I have all the external wiring done correctly?)

Running MS3X v3.57
Matt Cramer
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Re: '68 Datsun Roadster w/KA24de, need a little info for sta

Post by Matt Cramer »

cortina042 wrote:Hey everyone,
I’m in need of some guidance. I have a ’68 Datsun Roadster that I’ve installed a KA24DE into. It’s been running perfectly for the last year and a half and decided to install MS3/MS3x v3.57.
All of the wiring is done (I hope). I have good trigger signals in TS and have installed the trigger wheel for DIY.
Here’s the problem(s):
1. No spark at the plugs. Have power to coil (+) and coil (-) goes to pin 36 on MS3 main harness connector.
Can you get a spark in coil test mode?
2. When I key-on I currently don’t see any LED’s on inside the MS box (and I’m sure that this the cause of #1) I have JP1 jumpered on 1-2 position, J1 is jumpered on 3-4 position, I installed a 1K ohm resistor in the R57 slot, and I have jumpered JP7 (does this jumper give the secondary trigger the pull-up?)
Probably not the issue - MS3s normally do not use LEDs for spark output.
3. Is the MS3 able to fire the stock coil w/o an ignitor? I haven’t found a wiring schematic specific for MS3 and a stock ignition for KA24DE only MS1 and MS2, but I made the assumption that it’s similar with MS3 except in the pull-ups for primary and secondary triggers?
Only if you modify it for direct coil control.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
cortina042
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Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:38 pm
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

Re: '68 Datsun Roadster w/KA24de, need a little info for sta

Post by cortina042 »

Hey Matt,
Thanks for the quick reply.
Can you get a spark in coil test mode?
No, I'm not able to get any spark in test mode either (or injector pulsing either for that matter, although I am smelling fuel during cranking)
Probably not the issue - MS3s normally do not use LEDs for spark output.
As far as LED's, when this was installed in my cortina, i had starting issues when I lost power to MS during cranking because i pulled power from radio power. I figured this out because the LED glow that I could see thru gaps around the SD slot went out during cranking, but ON with key on. Once i fixed the power during cranking the LED's glowed while cranking and would start. Now, in the current application in the Roadster, I don't have LED's on during cranking or key on. Yet, I am still able to connect with TS and get trigger and sync signals. All of this is not specifically for 'LED's and spark output', but possibly losing power somewhere on the boards thus not being able to process inputs and send outputs correctly.
Only if you modify it for direct coil control.
How specifically to modify the MS3?
I have JP1 jumpered on 1-2 position, J1 is jumpered on 3-4 position, I installed a 1K ohm resistor in the R57 slot, and I have jumpered JP7 (does this jumper give the secondary trigger the pull-up?)
Is this it or am I missing something else? Can you link me somewhere that outlines what needs to be done?

And.... for the possibility that the MS has somehow gone south somewhere on the boards can I send this in to get tested/fixed?

Thanks again for all the help.

Mark
Matt Cramer
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Re: '68 Datsun Roadster w/KA24de, need a little info for sta

Post by Matt Cramer »

First off - how exactly do you have spark control wired up?
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
cortina042
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:38 pm
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

Re: '68 Datsun Roadster w/KA24de, need a little info for sta

Post by cortina042 »

I have key-on 12v to coil (+) and coil (-) goes to pin 36 on MS3 main harness connector.

Having bought the 50mm trigger disc from DIY I used this from the site on how to set it up:

"Using the MS-III V3.0 or V3.57 ECU with MS3X for full sequential

Hardware setup

The MS3 manual generally favors the VR input, so we'll be using that.
Place the JP1 jumper in the 1-2 position for a V3.57. For a V3.0, jumper TachSelect to VRIN.
Place the J1 jumper in the 3-4 position for a V3.57. For a V3.0, jumper TSEL to VROUT.
Put a 1K resistor in the R57 slot on a V3.57. For a V3.0, run a 1K resistor from S12 to TachSelect. (Or you can use a 1K pull up in the wiring from a 12 volt source to pin 24 of the main board.)
The second trigger input also needs a pull-up. Install JP7.
TunerStudio settings (Sequential coil on plug and / or sequential fuel): All are under Ignition Settings -> Ignition Options / Wheel Decoder.

Spark mode: Toothed Wheel
Ignition input capture: Rising Edge
Spark output will depend on what output setup you're using. QuadSparks use Going High / Inverted; so do OEM SR20DET ignition modules. Getting this setting wrong can damage the ignition module and/or coils. If the ignition module or coils get hot with the key on and the engine off, turn the key off immediately and select the opposite output setting.
Trigger wheel arrangement: Dual wheel with missing tooth
Trigger wheel teeth: 12
Missing Teeth: 1
Tooth #1 angle: 345 (This varies slightly between individual engines. Check with a timing light and adjust as needed.)
Wheel speed: Crank wheel
Second trigger active on: Poll Level


Wiring notes

Nissan used several different wire setups over the years. Here are several known examples. The primary trigger always wires to pin 24 on the main board DB37. For MS2, the second trigger wires to pin 3 on the main board DB37, or pin 7 on the DB15 if using the optional V3.57 DB15 input. For MS3, the second trigger wires to MS3X pin 32.

Distributor Wire Colors: 240SX

'89-'90 '91 and later Purpose
B/W B/W 12v+
G/B White Primary (Crank) Trigger
G/Y Black Second (Crank) Trigger
Black Black Ground"
Matt Cramer
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Re: '68 Datsun Roadster w/KA24de, need a little info for sta

Post by Matt Cramer »

That article covers the input side. How is the output wired up?
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
cortina042
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Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:38 pm
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

Re: '68 Datsun Roadster w/KA24de, need a little info for sta

Post by cortina042 »

I have key-on 12v to coil (+) and coil (-) goes to pin 36 on MS3 main harness connector.
cortina042
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Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:38 pm
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

Re: '68 Datsun Roadster w/KA24de, need a little info for sta

Post by cortina042 »

Hey Matt, wondering if this is the info you were looking for?

Mark
Matt Cramer
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Re: '68 Datsun Roadster w/KA24de, need a little info for sta

Post by Matt Cramer »

Yes. That will work if and only if you have a BIP373 in the Q16 slot and the spark output set to trigger whatever you have wired to IGBTIN. That will not work with the MS3X Spark setting.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
cortina042
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:38 pm
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

Re: '68 Datsun Roadster w/KA24de, need a little info for sta

Post by cortina042 »

Hey Matt,
I think I'm finally getting somewhere in my brain.
spark output set to trigger whatever you have wired to IGBTIN
I found in the schematics for the MSIII v 3.57 sheet 5 shows the note 1 for high-current ignition driver. ig-out is pin 36 on db37 connector, but I can't find any other ref for igbtin and where it is wired to a connector. Also, is this triggered in TS under spark hardware in use? If so, is it the JS10 option?

Thanks again for your help and input.
Mark
Matt Cramer
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Re: '68 Datsun Roadster w/KA24de, need a little info for sta

Post by Matt Cramer »

To use the high current driver, you would install a BIP373 in the Q16 slot. Depending on what you have IGBTIN wired to, you can either use JS10 or LEDs as the output.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
cortina042
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:38 pm
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

Re: '68 Datsun Roadster w/KA24de, need a little info for sta

Post by cortina042 »

Alright... So, I pulled the box apart to verify a few things finally. Discovered that there is no driver at all in the Q16 spot and there is nothing wired to the IGBTIN hole on the board.

So, this thread and the intent of my original reason to post has gone way far sideways. I was hoping that by firing the stock coil and distributor that I knew worked (taking the COP out of the system) I could dial in the timing offset and such.

With that said, back to original reason for posting.... I'm trying to determine if my MS is blown.

So I have a few questions and concerns so that I may better understand what is going on with MS.
As stated earlier in the post when this was running in my Cortina, there were lights on in the MS box when it was powered on and driving. Now when I power it up in the Roadster there are no lights on in the MS box. But, I am able to connect with TS. And this specifically is why I'm thinking the MS is blown.

Further research and study of various schematics of the main board show that with MS3X a pull-up resistor in slot R57 is not necessary. Is this true in the 240sx case using the trigger wheel from DIY? What exactly does the R57 pull-up do?

The reason I ask about R57 is that this setup was already running and driving in my Cortina and I did not have the pull-up installed. The only changes I made to the wiring was for the distributor triggering of the KA24DE. Could the installed pull-up cause any problems such as shutting down parts of the board due to logic problems, back feeding, shorts, etc?

Thanks again for any and all input, insights and patience with me.

Mark
Matt Cramer
Super MS/Extra'er
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Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:08 pm

Re: '68 Datsun Roadster w/KA24de, need a little info for sta

Post by Matt Cramer »

You'll want to check things piece by piece.

Overall ECU condition: It's powering up and communicating with TunerStudio. So it's not too far gone.

Spark input: Does it get RPM when you crank?

Spark output: Use output test mode.

Injector output: Use output test mode.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
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