Yes, another Diesel and VNT turbo question

[Butt-Roc]

First off. Hello and thank you for this great place. I hope I can contribute to it.

My name is J and I am interested in using the MS system for controlling my VNT turbo on my mechanical diesel.
Ive briefly searched the forum looking for definite answers to whether or not the MS can operate the VNT. So I figured that I would at least give you some info of my build and then you could tell me if MS would be the right choice.
1.6L VW Diesel modified
Performance injectors and pump
2260 VNT turbo "output" PWM
N.O.S. "output" PWM
Water/Meth "output" PWM
TP switch "input"
RPM "input"
VSS "input"
MAP "input"
EGT "input"
From what Ive read is that the water/meth and NOS will be the easy part but what about the PWM for the turbo? So if anyone has any info/links of someone who is using MegaSquirt on a diesel or a VNT turbo, please fwd it to me?

Thank you for your interest.

[elutionsdesign]

What are you planning to use for rpm input? MS3 is the only system that has PWM outputs so you know which system you need.

[Butt-Roc]

My RPM input signal will be from either a VW distributor on the block with a Hall wave output or from a clamp type piezo conductor on the #1 injector line. Theres plenty of ways to get an RPM signal.

I did find this guys way of controlling a VNT turbo. Looks like his Arduino board setup is also PWM output.

http://dmn.kuulalaakeri.org/vnt-lda/

Lots of data entry and code writing to make it work. But he made it work. Look at his video of the maps, very impressive.

I did send an email to DIYAutotune and they replied back with plenty of info and a complete parts list. I'm no expert but it looks like a lot of parts for what is needed to get started. I will research his recommended list and determine it from there.

[racingmini_mtl]

The Megasquirt hardware and code are not designed to work with a diesel engine.

Jean

[jsmcortina]

The Megasquirt hardware and code are not designed to work with a diesel engine.

This is true, but perhaps could be used to control just the turbo.

James

[racingmini_mtl]

The Megasquirt hardware and code are not designed to work with a diesel engine.

This is true, but perhaps could be used to control just the turbo.

James

If the injectors and pump are completely independent, I guess this would work. But I don't think there is anything comparable that has been discussed or posted here. So that would have to be considered experimental and any aspect specific to a diesel engine might not be catered for in the currently available firmware and hardware. But since I don't know much about diesels, that might be a non-issue for this specific case.

Jean

[subwoofer]

Jean, all he wants to control is the geometry of the turbo.

But it should be simple to control an early TDI with an MS3, those run a mechanical distributor pump with electronic control over a few solenoids. That would make it very easy to convert older diesel cars to something a bit more modern.

[piledriver]

I have a pair of 2260v turbos off a Dodge nee Mercedes Sprinter van I was planning to use similarly.
Have the VDO electronic controller.
(Note there is also a CAN buss version)

They need a ~140 hz PWM signal, probably not to exceed 10v.
The PWM must be within a relatively small frequency range or they go deaf.
12v PWM lets the blue smoke out. 5v no workee.

A PWM converter as Jean sells may work, have not gotten that far in the project.

There's good info on controlling them on some of the diesel truck forums.
I have the hookup prints and links somewhere but probably easier for you to just hit up Google.

The ~MK4 VW vacuum controlled setups solenoids run at 99 hz from the factory, and will be easier to control/
The vacuum pump will be the hard part there, unless you already have one off a diesel, sitting where the distributor usually goes (MK1-3(?) VW)

[racingmini_mtl]

Jean, all he wants to control is the geometry of the turbo.

The list of outputs in the first post shows more than just the turbo. And those do impact fueling in some way which would not be in the MS control.

Jean

[subwoofer]

He said "mechanical" diesel, that usually means the electronically controlled pump has been swapped for a similarly sized traditional diesel pump.

[subwoofer]

Reading the first post again: we aren't talking tractor pulling, by any chance?

[piledriver]

The old school M1-mk2 VW diesels have purely mechanical pumps and are prechamber type, the MK3s introduced the (larger) non-prechamber TDis, using essentially the same pump with electronic bits to control the injection timing and control the feed rate.(throttle by wire)

The variable timing made them ~civilized.

The early mechanical throttle pump control "heads" can be fitted in place of the upper electronic control part of the later (pre-PD//common rail) TDi pumps, forming a "mTDi" pump.(Mk3/early MK4 ALH. Mk4 went common rail a few years into the 10 year run.

OTOH the electronic pumps are probably all PWM driven, but its just like the Common Rail setups, there's little to no upside to an aftermarket EMS power wise, as either the mechanical pump/injectors are the limiter, or its already chippable far past its mechanical limits at a reasonable price. There is little documentation available on the electronic TDi pump control interface, at least the last time I looked.

It looks like he'd simply be using the MS for logging and controlling nitrous, boost etc, perhaps supplemental propane.

Still not certain if hes using the vacuum controlled or electronic VNT setup.

Note the TDis run ~16:1 CR, the NA diesels ran 19:1, so deeper dishes/lower CR would be very desirable if boosting an early VW diesel heavily.

[subwoofer]

The only reason for going third party EMS on the first generation TDIs is the dang immobilizer, not all people know how to get around it.

[piledriver]

The only reason for going third party EMS on the first generation TDIs is the dang immobilizer, not all people know how to get around it.

True, but there are shops making a living off reprogramming chips due to that.
They cost far less than any equivalent aftermarket EMS setup, and to be frank, the ECUs are a lot more sophisticated, or at least have mega$ of R&D//programming that went into them for all the various fueling modes (multiple injection/cycle etc) , most of which aftermarket EMS cannot even do.

Folks have swapped Mk5+ motors into Mk1s doing that.(TDi and even the GDI motors)
(blocks are all ~same size externally, and largely the same internally)

[Butt-Roc]

Jean, all he wants to control is the geometry of the turbo.

But it should be simple to control an early TDI with an MS3, those run a mechanical distributor pump with electronic control over a few solenoids. That would make it very easy to convert older diesel cars to something a bit more modern.

Yes, all I want to do is control the turbo electronically. Either with the VW actuator/controller or by a separate servo, such as an Radio Controlled Servo.
My engine is all mechanical but the turbo. The other outputs that I'd like to have is for Nitrous and/or/both, water/meth. If those can't be done then I won't bother.

[Butt-Roc]

I have a pair of 2260v turbos off a Dodge nee Mercedes Sprinter van I was planning to use similarly.
Have the VDO electronic controller.
(Note there is also a CAN buss version)

They need a ~140 hz PWM signal, probably not to exceed 10v.
The PWM must be within a relatively small frequency range or they go deaf.
12v PWM lets the blue smoke out. 5v no workee.

A PWM converter as Jean sells may work, have not gotten that far in the project.

There's good info on controlling them on some of the diesel truck forums.
I have the hookup prints and links somewhere but probably easier for you to just hit up Google.

The ~MK4 VW vacuum controlled setups solenoids run at 99 hz from the factory, and will be easier to control/
The vacuum pump will be the hard part there, unless you already have one off a diesel, sitting where the distributor usually goes (MK1-3(?) VW)

Great info and thanks for your post.

[Butt-Roc]

Reading the first post again: we aren't talking tractor pulling, by any chance?

Hahaha, I wish! I'd love to do that but no, this is for my 1976 VW Scirocco. Its a former road course car form the '90's. The front is tubed and the cage is fully connected to the front. The whole front clip comes off as one. I bought this car 4 years ago and would love to finish it a run it in hillclimb events and road race it occasionally.

[Butt-Roc]

So I thought maybe I'd give you the list of what DIY sent me. Here it is.

Here’s a quote for a pretty complete system with the ECU/Stim un-assembled:

$385.00 MS330-K: Megasquirt-III kit with V3.0 PCB
$105.00 MS3Xpander: MS3X expansion card
$59.00 JimStim-K: JimStim Stimulator kit
$9.50 StimPower: 120 volt to JimStim power supply
$79.00 MSHarness: 10' main board wiring harness
$79.00 MS3X-Hrn: 10' MS3X wiring harness
$22.25 IATwPiggy: Intake Air Temperature Sensor
$9.00 38NPT-Bung_A: Aluminum bung for IAT sensor (Also available in stainless steel)
$6.95 MS3TuneCable: USB communications cable for MS3
$754.70 Subtotal without wideband

And here’s a quote for a pretty complete system with the ECU/Stim assembled:

$659.00 MS3X357-C_BL: Assembled Megasquirt-III V3.57 with MS3X
$88.00 JimStim-C: Assembled JimStim diagnostic board
$9.50 StimPower: 120 volt to JimStim power supply
$79.00 MSHarness: 10' main board wiring harness
$79.00 MS3X-Hrn: 10' MS3X wiring harness
$22.25 IATwPiggy: Intake Air Temperature Sensor
$9.00 38NPT-Bung_A: Aluminum bung for IAT sensor (Also available in stainless steel)
$6.95 MS3TuneCable: USB communications cable for MS3
$952.70 Subtotal without wideband

The wideband oxygen sensor system is optional, but a very useful tuning tool. We carry the Innovate line.

Wideband Options—

$189.00 LC-2 without gauge (you can still view real-time AFR and datalog AFR through your laptop)
$209.00 MTX-L digital gauge system
$219.00 LC-2 with DB digital gauge (available in red, green, or blue)
$259.00 LC-2 with G series analog gauge
$349.00 LM-2 basic data logger with one sensor
$479.00 LM-2 deluxe kit with one O2 sensor
$669.00 LM-2 deluxe kit with two O2 sensors

I don't think I'll need the Wideband for my application.

please let me know what you think.

Thank you,

J

[piledriver]

Bosch LSU 4.9 should be quite useful on a diesel.
They read quite lean of stoich better.

I'm actually running quite lean of stoich now on E85 (well, E70 typically) and have bumped my head on the MS 25.5:1 hard limit occasionally.
Hoping to be running dual plugs and GDI this year, so I may have to "fake it" as far as the sensor calibration goes, perhaps do some magic in a custom gauge ini to have the correct reading at least visible.

Diesels at very high power levels run very rich of stoich (typically running propane as added very high octane fuel, perhaps you could also port inject E85 or E100? rather than propane? Don't know if that's viable, have not researched.)

I'm not certain what sensor innovate supports, but it has been said 4.9 sensors are all we are going to be able to get in a few years.(?)
Seems kinda idiotic with a bazillion cars out there that take LSU 4.2s, but perhaps that's a form of planned obsolescence.

I more suspect the patent expired. 4.2 equivalents will be available, just not from Bosch.

Here's some interesting reading, much reads like an ad, but it describes the differences of the older LSU4.2 we love/hate vs the newer LSU 4.9 pretty clearly.
http://www.ecotrons.com/technology/bosc ... 2_sensors/

Their "board" controller setup is quite affordable, anyone heard of them//running one?
I know its meant to plug into their ECU but it should be trivial to use it as a stand alone like a 14point7.com "eval kit", perhaps even using the eval kit baseboard/power supply.

The available CAN output interests me. (it supports analog, CAN or something else (SPI?) you get to choose when wiring it up?)

I almost didn't link, but their EFI systems seem to be ~zero "competition" to even a MS1 as far a flexibility goes, and most seem to be for "OEMs", but they seem to have prices for their WBO2 controllers and a checkout system... hmm.
EFI is Freescale SOC based from the looks of things, just very limited.