A little introduction, and some help needed

[m.s.t.]

Hello guys,

I thought I should introduce myself to the forum since I'm a new guy here.
My name is Gino and at the moment I'm studying to become a Automotive Engineer (bachelors degree), in the past I worked a lot on cars and have worked in about 6 different workshops.
In my spare time I like to tune cars, especially my own Nissan Skyline R32.

Currently I'm working on a Mazda RX8 Renesis engine, which we are going to run on a engine dyno for testing and devolpment pupose. I can't say a lot about it because it's pretty confidencial.
Now, I worked with some stand-alone and piggybacks in the past but I recently had my first expierence with the MS3.
We build the MS3 onto the Renesis just because it's a lot easier to modify then the stock ecu, I wired it up properly and it ran the first time I cranked it.

I think the MS3 is a good device and capable of doing well, has a lot of features and a lot of things can be adjusted in the Tunerstudio.
However... I signed up here because there are somethings I can't work around, at least I don't like how it's set up.

1st "problem" : Inside the Tools tab there is thing called "Calibrate Thermistor Tables" I think the 3 Point Therm Generator is not sufficient, it should have more points, not every temperature sensor had a nice lineair or logaritmic (or whatever its called) line. For example the RX8 temp sensors are like this: INSERT IMAGE ( I upload this later )
Second thing about this tab is that it would be nice if you could just insert the voltage here. Resistance is good but I think the expansion of inserting voltage would be nice.

2nd "problem" : On the internet and in the manual there is a difference in setting up the wiring for the RX8 ignition sequence, the one in the current manual is correct! If you know how it al works then it's easy to find the correct way to wire it, but if you are a newbie than it will be verry confusing.

3th problem : And yes this is a real problem (at least for me), I hugly prefer running cars with MAF sensors, I aint even going to argue why or why not. Period.
The problem with the MS3 and the TunerStudio MS Lite! v2.6.19 is; when I'm setting up the MAF mode as primary Fuel Load, I don't get a VE table1. Now I know, when setting a target lambda in the Engine and Sequential Settings I will get a Requierd Fuel and it will run on a carefully thought about algorithm. BUT, how do you guys even tune this? There is no table for trimming my fuel... ?? Am I just missing something or what?
I can't always run it closed loop with the AFR target map, just impossible.
Setting up Secondary Fuel Load with MAF will get me a VE table 2 based on MAF load, This is an option but is this how it's intended? Why can't I just get VE table 1 and trim that?

4th "problem" : when settings up the MAF flow curve, I had to do this all by hand. Now I'm not a retard but I would love it if there is just an import and export button like on all the other tables. If I lose the current settings it's just time consuming to redo the MAF scaling.

Last thing, I would love to know how the "loads" are calculated, just the formula would be enough.

I hope someone has the answer for my "problems" espaccialy the 3th problem is something I need to get around.

Thanks in advance, hope I can solve some problems for other guys on the forum in return.

[slow_hemi6]

Hi, hows it going. No expert but I can help with a few things.
1. If you open up the cltfactor.inc file with a text editor it can be modified. This file has the full 1024, ADC to temp in deg x 10, translations. 1 ADC = 4.883mV as seen by the uC input pin.
2. Pretty sure the current official manuals should always override any other stuff found on the net.
3.&4. I can't help with as I have only done SD. There are a few MAF users on the forums. You should be able to get some help with setting it up and tuning.

[Matt Cramer]

Welcome to the forum! I'll be glad to help with these; often there's an alternate method in place.

1st "problem" : Inside the Tools tab there is thing called "Calibrate Thermistor Tables" I think the 3 Point Therm Generator is not sufficient, it should have more points, not every temperature sensor had a nice lineair or logaritmic (or whatever its called) line.
Second thing about this tab is that it would be nice if you could just insert the voltage here. Resistance is good but I think the expansion of inserting voltage would be nice.

The way to do this is to use a custom INC file. This lets you enter the temperature at every ADC count on the sensor input.

2nd "problem" : On the internet and in the manual there is a difference in setting up the wiring for the RX8 ignition sequence, the one in the current manual is correct! If you know how it al works then it's easy to find the correct way to wire it, but if you are a newbie than it will be verry confusing.

Do you have a link to where you found the wrong wiring notes?

3th problem : And yes this is a real problem (at least for me), I hugly prefer running cars with MAF sensors, I aint even going to argue why or why not. Period.
The problem with the MS3 and the TunerStudio MS Lite! v2.6.19 is; when I'm setting up the MAF mode as primary Fuel Load, I don't get a VE table1. Now I know, when setting a target lambda in the Engine and Sequential Settings I will get a Requierd Fuel and it will run on a carefully thought about algorithm. BUT, how do you guys even tune this? There is no table for trimming my fuel... ?? Am I just missing something or what?
I can't always run it closed loop with the AFR target map, just impossible.
Setting up Secondary Fuel Load with MAF will get me a VE table 2 based on MAF load, This is an option but is this how it's intended? Why can't I just get VE table 1 and trim that?

Go to Basic / Load Settings -> MAF Settings, and set "Use VE1 as Trim Table" to "On". That will give you the trim table you're looking for.

4th "problem" : when settings up the MAF flow curve, I had to do this all by hand. Now I'm not a retard but I would love it if there is just an import and export button like on all the other tables. If I lose the current settings it's just time consuming to redo the MAF scaling.

The registered version of TunerStudio has a feature to save partial MSQs. There is a File menu with a "Save Dialog Settings" option to save that screen only.

Last thing, I would love to know how the "loads" are calculated, just the formula would be enough.

Speed density: Load = MAP in kPa.
Percent baro: Load = MAP / barometric pressure.
Alpha-N: Load = TPS.
MAF: MAFload is the measured airflow divided by the air flow the engine would have at the current RPM if it had 100% volumetric efficiency.
ITB: This one's a blend of speed density and alpha-N; see the section in the manual for details.

[m.s.t.]

Welcome to the forum! I'll be glad to help with these; often there's an alternate method in place.

1st "problem" : Inside the Tools tab there is thing called "Calibrate Thermistor Tables" I think the 3 Point Therm Generator is not sufficient, it should have more points, not every temperature sensor had a nice lineair or logaritmic (or whatever its called) line.
Second thing about this tab is that it would be nice if you could just insert the voltage here. Resistance is good but I think the expansion of inserting voltage would be nice.

The way to do this is to use a custom INC file. This lets you enter the temperature at every ADC count on the sensor input.

2nd "problem" : On the internet and in the manual there is a difference in setting up the wiring for the RX8 ignition sequence, the one in the current manual is correct! If you know how it al works then it's easy to find the correct way to wire it, but if you are a newbie than it will be verry confusing.

Do you have a link to where you found the wrong wiring notes?

3th problem : And yes this is a real problem (at least for me), I hugly prefer running cars with MAF sensors, I aint even going to argue why or why not. Period.
The problem with the MS3 and the TunerStudio MS Lite! v2.6.19 is; when I'm setting up the MAF mode as primary Fuel Load, I don't get a VE table1. Now I know, when setting a target lambda in the Engine and Sequential Settings I will get a Requierd Fuel and it will run on a carefully thought about algorithm. BUT, how do you guys even tune this? There is no table for trimming my fuel... ?? Am I just missing something or what?
I can't always run it closed loop with the AFR target map, just impossible.
Setting up Secondary Fuel Load with MAF will get me a VE table 2 based on MAF load, This is an option but is this how it's intended? Why can't I just get VE table 1 and trim that?

Go to Basic / Load Settings -> MAF Settings, and set "Use VE1 as Trim Table" to "On". That will give you the trim table you're looking for.

4th "problem" : when settings up the MAF flow curve, I had to do this all by hand. Now I'm not a retard but I would love it if there is just an import and export button like on all the other tables. If I lose the current settings it's just time consuming to redo the MAF scaling.

The registered version of TunerStudio has a feature to save partial MSQs. There is a File menu with a "Save Dialog Settings" option to save that screen only.

Last thing, I would love to know how the "loads" are calculated, just the formula would be enough.

Speed density: Load = MAP in kPa.
Percent baro: Load = MAP / barometric pressure.
Alpha-N: Load = TPS.
MAF: MAFload is the measured airflow divided by the air flow the engine would have at the current RPM if it had 100% volumetric efficiency.
ITB: This one's a blend of speed density and alpha-N; see the section in the manual for details.

Thank you, I knew it where just simple things I was missing!

http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_article ... fc_rx7.htm
On this page and some posts on this forum I found:
A= Front Leading
B=Front Trailing
C=Rear Trailing
D=Rear Leading

The proper way to set it up when using plug on coils like te Renesis is (Manual version):
A=Front Leading
B=Rear Leading
C=Front Trailing
D=Rear Trailing

The question how the load is calculated is because I have the OEM maps from the renesis and I was wondering if the load calc was the same as the OEM ecu does, this would give me a perfect basemap.

Anyway, thanks for the quick help, I will try to write the inc file for the sensors later.

[m.s.t.]

I was just trying to figure out these inc files.
I'm really new at programming, I don't know anything about it basicly...
What I have is this:

So I started searching for this cltfactor.inc file and could not find it.
I searched the forum and I found this link:
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... nc#p196834
I downloaded the zip which includes some batch and script and the cltfactor.inc. Now, I don't know how to run this and the readme only gets me more confused lol.

So I started searching my programfiles for inc files in the tunerstudio folders and I found the Thermfactor.inc


I guess this is the one I should edit and then load via tools>calibrate therm..>custom inc file>write to controller

What does: gentherm2.exe mean? When loading the inc file as above wouldn't it startup a program (gentherm2.exe) when running/loading it?
Now you guys posted that 1ADC = 4.883mV, this is something I can use. From Fahrenheit to Celsius is no problem either. But will changing (dF) to (dC) specify that I'm using Celsius?
But what does the 2nd column mean? The 210T 475T etc..

Should I change anything elsle in this inc file when writing the custom one for my engine?

Please help me out.

[Matt Cramer]

Keep this in mind: That voltage is generated with the Mazda ECU's bias resistors, NOT the MegaSquirt's.

[slow_hemi6]

That looks like an old MS1 8 bit(256) ADC inc file. The MS2 and 3 use 10 bit ADC(1024). The std cltfactor will be in the release code sub folder named MS3extra(I think).
If you want to send a modified cltfactor to the MS then you can use tuner studio Tools > Unlock calibrations > Calibrate thermistor tables select Coolant temp sensor and select custom for Input solution and browse for your modified file. Write that to the controller and then lock your calibrations again.
From your posted graphs it looks like mazda's clt bias resistor would have about the same resistance as what you measure across the disconnected sensor at 32.5C. Assuming a 50/50 voltage divider. Apparently IAT has a different resistance as its 1/2 of 5v point is about 17.6C.

[m.s.t.]

Hi guys thanks for the tips.

Yesterday I tried again using the 3 point calc which is intergrated in tunerstudio.
What I discoverd is that the bias resistor in the megasquirt has been changed to 4.78k Ohms ( I measured this ). This megasquirt was used on a RX7 13B before.

I measured the sensors at a few degrees and this came out:
CLT
16degC=> 2.7k Ohms
22degC=> 1.22k Ohms
45degC=> 580 Ohms
90degC=> 175 Ohms

IAT
17degC=> 2.83k Ohms
35degC=> 2.2k Ohms
50degC=> 400 Ohms

When entering these values my IAT readings are 90degC @ 17degC and for the CLT 40degC @ 17degC...

When I just play with highest or lowest value I get the readings to go around 17degC when they are actually 17degC. I didn't test it at higher temps yet because the cooling system is not ready yet, so can't run the engine for to long.
I really have to mod the variables alot to get it right at ambient temp, this should not be the case I guess..

Wonder what I'm doing wrong...

[DaveEFI]

Those resistance readings are what I'd call standard GM, so changing back to the standard 2K49 bias resistor should give the correct readings.

[jsmcortina]

Those resistance readings are what I'd call standard GM, so changing back to the standard 2K49 bias resistor should give the correct readings.

The calibration function should take care of that though, so long as you type in the actual bias resistor value?

James

[m.s.t.]

Those resistance readings are what I'd call standard GM, so changing back to the standard 2K49 bias resistor should give the correct readings.

The calibration function should take care of that though, so long as you type in the actual bias resistor value?

James

I tset the actual bias value in the calibration screen.
Will try if it helps to change to standard resistor but i doubt it will give better results.

[DaveEFI]

Both my ATS and CTS read true ambient to within a degree C or so after an overnight stop. It's the only easy check they are correctly calibrated.