mkiv 454 bbc efi swap
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mkiv 454 bbc efi swap
i hope this is the proper place for a build thread slash helpful place for ms3x questions, if not point me the right direction.
Hello,... Ive been piecing together parts to do an ms3x install onto a mkvi 454 bbc in a 1964 chevelle. been reading as much info as i can put in front of my eyes and its about time to pull the trigger with the install.
motor - 1970 chevy big block chevy LS7 (block code XCH) 454 cu. bumped up to 14/1 compressing, big cam and the works.......
Thanks
ecu – kp tuned built ms3x
fuel pump – bosch 044
wide band – LC1
injectors – ebay china knockoff bosch 60lbs
fpr – fuelab
fuel line – all –8 efi rated hose and AN fittings
manifold – edelbrock xp
fuel rails – edelbrock xp
t-body – edelbrock 90mm (1369 cfm flow) with ls style idle valve and tps built in
ITA sensor – open style from DIY
CTS sensor – closed style from DIY
crank hall sensor – bolt on style from DIY
crank toothed wheel – custom made by me (36-1)
so far i think i have most my bases covered but spark.......
plan A. is to run the car with the current MSD ignition and fire the injectors BATCH style but after reading more i realized i would have to rewire the injectors to change to sequential injection and id relay like to not be forced redo the harness down the road so i am now looking at a plan B.......
plan B. use a 90's GM HEI distributor to get a HAL/Cam position signal and run LS style coil on plug ignition controlled via the ms3x. i have the parts in stock to do this but have yet to find any info via google about using the HEI distributor to get a good cam position signal when used in the way i am thinking of using it.
i hope someone around here has some useful info about what option for spark i should go with.
to help this project make more sense here are some pics of what i have going on with the car getting the ms3x ecu install.
chevelle is up on the lift while i installed o2 bungs in each header.
motor as it sits now, had a few carbs on it and never really could get a good all around level of driveablity out of the motor. looking forward to what EFI can do for the motor.
drew up the crank toothed wheel in AutoCad
then cut it out with my CNC plasma system
this will probably change a lot but its the start to a hall sensor mount
next up was cutting some aluminum to become a place for the ecu and other electronics to call home.
the ecu mount is a 11" deep plate 18" wide that mounts under the passenger side of the dash, here it is in the up or closed position
and this is how the ecu mount looks in the down or open position. this should make access easy while keeping everything organized.
side view of mounting plate, its .125" thick 6061 aluminum
ms3x ecu, gear vendors unit controller, lc1, 12v relays, fuse block will all be installed on the mount
to help the intake manifold stay clean while providing some vacuum to the crank case i made a catch can. there are internal baffles to help with getting the oil droplets out of the passing by air before the air enters the manifold.
this used to be a part of i-70 guardrail in the Colorado Rockies.....
also to help with the install i made some fuel pump mounts, these us a vibration isolation hardware (made in the USA) for attaching the mount to the car.
here is the GM HEI distributor i pulled out of a mid 90's 350 TBI suburban. i hope to use this for cam position sensing on the big block but need to do more research as i am not sure this will do what i am needing.
thanks
Hello,... Ive been piecing together parts to do an ms3x install onto a mkvi 454 bbc in a 1964 chevelle. been reading as much info as i can put in front of my eyes and its about time to pull the trigger with the install.
motor - 1970 chevy big block chevy LS7 (block code XCH) 454 cu. bumped up to 14/1 compressing, big cam and the works.......
Thanks
ecu – kp tuned built ms3x
fuel pump – bosch 044
wide band – LC1
injectors – ebay china knockoff bosch 60lbs
fpr – fuelab
fuel line – all –8 efi rated hose and AN fittings
manifold – edelbrock xp
fuel rails – edelbrock xp
t-body – edelbrock 90mm (1369 cfm flow) with ls style idle valve and tps built in
ITA sensor – open style from DIY
CTS sensor – closed style from DIY
crank hall sensor – bolt on style from DIY
crank toothed wheel – custom made by me (36-1)
so far i think i have most my bases covered but spark.......
plan A. is to run the car with the current MSD ignition and fire the injectors BATCH style but after reading more i realized i would have to rewire the injectors to change to sequential injection and id relay like to not be forced redo the harness down the road so i am now looking at a plan B.......
plan B. use a 90's GM HEI distributor to get a HAL/Cam position signal and run LS style coil on plug ignition controlled via the ms3x. i have the parts in stock to do this but have yet to find any info via google about using the HEI distributor to get a good cam position signal when used in the way i am thinking of using it.
i hope someone around here has some useful info about what option for spark i should go with.
to help this project make more sense here are some pics of what i have going on with the car getting the ms3x ecu install.
chevelle is up on the lift while i installed o2 bungs in each header.
motor as it sits now, had a few carbs on it and never really could get a good all around level of driveablity out of the motor. looking forward to what EFI can do for the motor.
drew up the crank toothed wheel in AutoCad
then cut it out with my CNC plasma system
this will probably change a lot but its the start to a hall sensor mount
next up was cutting some aluminum to become a place for the ecu and other electronics to call home.
the ecu mount is a 11" deep plate 18" wide that mounts under the passenger side of the dash, here it is in the up or closed position
and this is how the ecu mount looks in the down or open position. this should make access easy while keeping everything organized.
side view of mounting plate, its .125" thick 6061 aluminum
ms3x ecu, gear vendors unit controller, lc1, 12v relays, fuse block will all be installed on the mount
to help the intake manifold stay clean while providing some vacuum to the crank case i made a catch can. there are internal baffles to help with getting the oil droplets out of the passing by air before the air enters the manifold.
this used to be a part of i-70 guardrail in the Colorado Rockies.....
also to help with the install i made some fuel pump mounts, these us a vibration isolation hardware (made in the USA) for attaching the mount to the car.
here is the GM HEI distributor i pulled out of a mid 90's 350 TBI suburban. i hope to use this for cam position sensing on the big block but need to do more research as i am not sure this will do what i am needing.
thanks
Last edited by carslutt on Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: mkiv 454 bbc efi swap
Nice work! Consider a '96-'00 Vortec distributor; they've already got only one tooth and are great for an instant cam sensor.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
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Re: mkiv 454 bbc efi swap
Matt, does that vortex dizzy have a crank trigger too with more than 8 teeth?
Volvo 940, 2jzge, MS3Pro, daily
240Z, 2JZ, MS3Pro boost control
240Z, 2JZ, MS3Pro boost control
Re: mkiv 454 bbc efi swap
Hello Matt, thanks for the tip. is this the style distributor you are referring too?
if so that would be a easy and cheap fix for my need to get cam position.
Thanks
if so that would be a easy and cheap fix for my need to get cam position.
Thanks
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Re: mkiv 454 bbc efi swap
Another MS-powered Chevelle? I like it! I'm not doing anything fancy like 36-1 w/multiple coils, just running the 8pin HEI + MSD 6AL. I'm pretty certain you'll be pleased with the result compared to your carb.
You're using an external fuel pump? Speaking from experience, I'd suggest finding a way to do an in-tank pump, or maybe a surge tank fed by your old mechanical pump. Looks like you have good welding/fab skills. I don't, so I ended up getting a Tanks Inc. tank after burning through a few externals. It's a quality piece and not too expensive. Not sure if they make one for a 64, though.
Keep us posted on the progress!
-Dave
You're using an external fuel pump? Speaking from experience, I'd suggest finding a way to do an in-tank pump, or maybe a surge tank fed by your old mechanical pump. Looks like you have good welding/fab skills. I don't, so I ended up getting a Tanks Inc. tank after burning through a few externals. It's a quality piece and not too expensive. Not sure if they make one for a 64, though.
Keep us posted on the progress!
-Dave
'70 Chevelle ZZ383/700r4/3.73 MS3X, 36-1, LS Coils, Holley Stealthram -- success story
'92 Saturn 1.9 DOHC/5sp, MS3, Champcar racer success story
'79 Malibu DartSHP400/80mm/PG/3.55, MS3X/36-1/LS Coils -- success story
Porsche 944 S2 3.0 -- MS3X/36-1/LS Coils, 1:44s Mid-Ohio, Pro Course
'92 Saturn 1.9 DOHC/5sp, MS3, Champcar racer success story
'79 Malibu DartSHP400/80mm/PG/3.55, MS3X/36-1/LS Coils -- success story
Porsche 944 S2 3.0 -- MS3X/36-1/LS Coils, 1:44s Mid-Ohio, Pro Course
Re: mkiv 454 bbc efi swap
hello Dave, thanks for the fuel system input. currently the car has a in-trunk fuel cell running an external low psi pump. i plan to simply swap to the Bosch 044 and be done with hooking fuel out from the thank to the motor. this fuel cell has provisions for a return line to connect on top so i am set for an easy return install. I have been thinking of finding a way to hook an PSI sensor into the fuel supply system so i can get the ecu to data log fuel PSI. this way i have the ablity to tell 100% for sure if i am running out of fuel supply when at the track. this should help me decide on further upgrades for the fuel system but i am not sure if the ms3x ecu will support another sensor at this time.
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Re: mkiv 454 bbc efi swap
How many additional sensors are you logging now? Ms3x card allows for 3 analog inputs to do just what you want to do. I use a 22.00 sensor off eBay for my logging
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Re: mkiv 454 bbc efi swap
Hello Nathaninwa, i am thinking for analog inputs id like.......
water temp
oil psi
fuel psi
oil temp
o2 reading
vehicle speed sensor
tranny temp
rpm
throttle position
intake air temp
radiator fan on/off (to know at what temp its coming on to verify its working properly and how long after the CTS picks up high temp the fans kick on since the are ran on separate sensors)
i know most of these ill get to log already since they are a must to getting the system working. honestly id like to log everything so i have as much info as possible to tune the car with. once the car is running ill start adding more than just the required sensors so im able to get the most out of the ecu and cars relationship.
water temp
oil psi
fuel psi
oil temp
o2 reading
vehicle speed sensor
tranny temp
rpm
throttle position
intake air temp
radiator fan on/off (to know at what temp its coming on to verify its working properly and how long after the CTS picks up high temp the fans kick on since the are ran on separate sensors)
i know most of these ill get to log already since they are a must to getting the system working. honestly id like to log everything so i have as much info as possible to tune the car with. once the car is running ill start adding more than just the required sensors so im able to get the most out of the ecu and cars relationship.
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Re: mkiv 454 bbc efi swap
So you have 4 extra inputs you need. Fuel pressure, oil pressure, oil temp and tranny temp. Here's what I would do. Use the same temp sensor as the engine, I'd choose the gm sensor, and wire the oil and tranny together using a 3 way toggle. Then just flip between them as needed while still logging or displaying the others
Edit, when it comes time to log more, you can add on a microsquirt over canbus and it acts like an additional input/output box. Let's you log 7 more things and gives you two more vr sensor inputs long with some extra pwm and on/off outputs
Edit, when it comes time to log more, you can add on a microsquirt over canbus and it acts like an additional input/output box. Let's you log 7 more things and gives you two more vr sensor inputs long with some extra pwm and on/off outputs
Volvo 940, 2jzge, MS3Pro, daily
240Z, 2JZ, MS3Pro boost control
240Z, 2JZ, MS3Pro boost control
Re: mkiv 454 bbc efi swap
did more reading last night and if i read the manual properly i can use the MS3X card to run all 8 injectors in 1 of 3 configurations (batch,semi-sequential or full sequential) simply by changing a setting in tuner studio. so i dove in and started building an harness. plan is to run (2) 22pin weather-pack connectors thru the firewall for the EFI.
glad the harness is nice and long, there should be plenty of wire to go all the way to each sensor/injector and such using the original labeled wire from DIY autotune!
had the ms3x/v3.0 manual printed along wit the tunersduio manual for ms3 products. wasn't cheap but so far the ability to flip pages, highlight stuff and take notes without a laptop has been priceless.
glad the harness is nice and long, there should be plenty of wire to go all the way to each sensor/injector and such using the original labeled wire from DIY autotune!
had the ms3x/v3.0 manual printed along wit the tunersduio manual for ms3 products. wasn't cheap but so far the ability to flip pages, highlight stuff and take notes without a laptop has been priceless.
Re: mkiv 454 bbc efi swap
put some time in this weekend on the MS install.
One thing i am not 100% clear on....... for the 12v power going to the injectors, does each injector 12v need to be ran separately meaning one wire from the relay/ power distribution point to each injector or is it okay to have (1) main power that splits off to each injector at the fuel rail?
about finished getting the plate to house the ECU and such laid out
fits the mounts fine and swing up/down with no issues. have about 3" above the ecu so it shouldn't have issues overheating.
cant wait to clean up all the under dash electrical, there is almost nothing under the dash so the wires are mostly just floating in air. i will do something to give the wiring a better install location.
now ill be moving deeper into building the harness.
One thing i am not 100% clear on....... for the 12v power going to the injectors, does each injector 12v need to be ran separately meaning one wire from the relay/ power distribution point to each injector or is it okay to have (1) main power that splits off to each injector at the fuel rail?
about finished getting the plate to house the ECU and such laid out
fits the mounts fine and swing up/down with no issues. have about 3" above the ecu so it shouldn't have issues overheating.
cant wait to clean up all the under dash electrical, there is almost nothing under the dash so the wires are mostly just floating in air. i will do something to give the wiring a better install location.
now ill be moving deeper into building the harness.
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Re: mkiv 454 bbc efi swap
The load isn't much on the injector side. I have a 15 amp fuse for 8 injectors. Some installs are batch fire and use a single 20ga wire from the Ecu to trigger up to 4 injectors. So with that said, I don't like to introduce voltage drop so on a v8 install, I'll run 14g from the relay to the split for each side, then 16g to the last injector in the run with 16g just branching off. A little over kill, but I don't have injector issues either
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Re: mkiv 454 bbc efi swap
Phenomenal! The amount of hands on fabrication and attention to detail is inspiring! That's a very good looking setup you've got. I just got my BBC up and going on MS3X, the things it can do are simply amazing. I will definitely be following your build, more pictures!!
Re: mkiv 454 bbc efi swap
Nathaninwa, thanks for the info about hooking 12v to the injectors. I feel better about my plan to run 1 main power then split off for each injector.
been a busy week around the shop so not too much got done on the car. i checked for clearance between the existing carb setup and the soon to be installed EFI manifold. there looks to be a chance the MS3X install will enable me to go back to running a stock hood (if i ever lucky enough to find a 64 chevlle hood ha ha).
I did start hooking up power/grounds and testing the existing systems that are moving. the Gear Vendors Unit is now relocated and working properly along with a much larger oil psi warning light.
this weekend i am going take the car to AAA speedway for its last trip down the dragstrip with a carb on it.... after that i have 1 car show the following weekend then the car is clear for the rest of the summer to get the EFI in and tuned.
been a busy week around the shop so not too much got done on the car. i checked for clearance between the existing carb setup and the soon to be installed EFI manifold. there looks to be a chance the MS3X install will enable me to go back to running a stock hood (if i ever lucky enough to find a 64 chevlle hood ha ha).
I did start hooking up power/grounds and testing the existing systems that are moving. the Gear Vendors Unit is now relocated and working properly along with a much larger oil psi warning light.
this weekend i am going take the car to AAA speedway for its last trip down the dragstrip with a carb on it.... after that i have 1 car show the following weekend then the car is clear for the rest of the summer to get the EFI in and tuned.
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Re: mkiv 454 bbc efi swap
Cool build and sorry to bring up an old thread. But how did finish up on the efi install?
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