Alfa TS new build, VE1 table values extremely high

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Seabird
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:16 am

Alfa TS new build, VE1 table values extremely high

Post by Seabird »

Good morning,

Been off and on with work on the Alfa fuel injection project for the last couple of weeks, race weekends sometimes take precedence :D After working through some initial miss wiring I was able to get the car cranked and idling. It was a little lumpy and not very stable, any throttle input would cause the engine to stumble and die. Eventually my understanding of Tunerstudio developed enough to make adjustments to the tune to get the engine running well through the WUE cycle. While I had it running everything seemed reasonable, did not make an effort to drive it yet. Once the engine was shut off though I was unable to get it cranked back up. This was very frustrating and searching the forum lead me to try a number of fixes that never resulted in a warm start resolution. Even with the motor at 100*F it would not restart. As I kept tuning my VE1 table at idle kept getting richer. Finally I was at a point where I said enough was enough I can keep throwing fuel at it, my VE1 vaules at idle were in the ballpark of 200. I doubled back and checked my injector sizing for the motor; it appears I was under injected.

The motor on carbs made 160 whp 151 trq. From the factory the engine reportedly made 150 crank hp. I bought a set of injectors that I assumed would cover the difference; bone head move I should have calculated what I needed. Stock injector supplies: 15.9#/hr First pass upgrade: 22.5#/hr Calculated need: 27#/hr When I realized I had made a mistake I ordered two sets of injectors that should cover the motors needs; one set that supplies 32#/hr and another that supplies 34.55#/hr.

Well the first of the new injectors arrived yesterday, the red top Bosch injectors that flow at 32 #/hr. I eagerly installed these injectors, generated a new required fuel number and a new VE1 table (using the generator tool), and began trying to crank the motor.... It would not start. Diagnosis ensued, voltage to injectors - check, spark - check, spark plug - fouled but still producing spark, no apparent fuel in cylinder... cranked over engine with shop rage in spark plug hole - no fuel present..... Rechecked presence of fuel in fuel rail - check.

From here I start adjusting the cranking pulse curve. Motor starts wanting to catch, but cant. Then I started playing with the VE1 table, 10% scale, 20% scale, the local to idle speed 15% scale. At each adjustment the motor caught a little bit more. Finally I have a motor that will stay running. Start warmup enrichment auto tune. Idle speed zone further enrichment increase to get A/F to a reasonable place. Finally the motor warms to operational temp and I stop the WE auto tune and start the VE1 auto tune. The idle cells enrich up to 183.2 and 172.0. I was able to reverse the car out of the garage and drive it back into the garage several times but had to be real ginger with the throttle to get it off idle. At this point I had to call it a night as it was getting late and I wanted to be kind to the neighbors.

I have included the usual, tune and a couple log files below. I am hesitant to keep going as I am getting back to what I feel are unrealistic VE1 table values especially considering the current injectors are almost 20% larger than expected per the standard calculators.

Here is my sensor setup:
- MAF Bosch 0 280 218 019 (not utilized at the moment)
- DIYAuto Map
- TPS Bosch 0 280 120 407 (potenitometer type from Porsche 944 Turbo - dirrect replacement for stock TPSwitch)
- CPS Hall Effect, 60-2, sensor position 84 deg BTDC
- Wideband need to check which I bought LC-1 or LC-2
- IAC Bosch 0 280 140 516
- Coils Ford Coilpacks Motorcraft DG 474
- Ignition Module Bosch 0 227 100 200 "dumb" modules
- Injectors Bosch 0 280 155 832 (20% increase in flow from stock) 0280150756 currently installed


Thanks for the help,

Miguel
billr
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 6828
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:41 am
Location: Walnut Creek, Calif. USA

Re: Alfa TS new build, VE1 table values extremely high

Post by billr »

I always ask... have you flowed the injectors, with your drivers and fuel system (FPR)? Is the stoic in your req_fuel calc correct for the fuel used?
Seabird
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:16 am

Re: Alfa TS new build, VE1 table values extremely high

Post by Seabird »

Thanks for the reply. Injectors are fresh rebuilds from one of the many eBay refurbish/sellers. First set came with a flow balance report. They have not been flow tested with my fuel injection system.

14.7 for regular gas.

Miguel
billr
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 6828
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:41 am
Location: Walnut Creek, Calif. USA

Re: Alfa TS new build, VE1 table values extremely high

Post by billr »

Flow and dead-time determined elsewhere may not be meaningful for your install. However, I will peek at your MSQ again to see if anything catches my eye other than the bogus VE values.
billr
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 6828
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:41 am
Location: Walnut Creek, Calif. USA

Re: Alfa TS new build, VE1 table values extremely high

Post by billr »

Your ignition options are set for TFI, wasted-spark, and (60-2) toothed crank wheel. I know little about TFI (other than older versions were failure-prone), but thought it was a single-coil/dizzy system. I'm wondering if TFI is consistent with the other settings.
Seabird
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:16 am

Re: Alfa TS new build, VE1 table values extremely high

Post by Seabird »

Thanks for reviewing my tune.

For some reason I thought the TFI was related to the bosch ignition modules I am using. I can try running the car with this setting set to "off". I have run the ignition off an OMEX 200 since I first built the car five years ago. The 60-2 and wasted spark for sure are correct. The Bosch modules are "dumb" so they need the dwell from the MS, this is probably what lead me down that road.

I was able to get the car to run and drive around the block yesterday afternoon. I only had about an hour to play with it. I used a greater fuel req number and recreated the VE1 table. I still needed to increase the values at idle to get it to run and idle. Once up to operating temperature I ran auto tune for a bit in the garage and then took a couple of laps around the block. Initially it ran better than after the tuning. Eventually it would not run.

I was able to restart after the engine warmed up so we are moving in the right direction.

I realized my fuel pressure regulator is not connected to the intake manifold. This might be part, if not all, of my problem.

Regards,

Miguel
Seabird
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:16 am

Re: Alfa TS new build, VE1 table values extremely high

Post by Seabird »

A little update.

I started questioning my fuel systems with the constant demand for greater fuel delivery at idle. I bought a cheap fuel pressure gauge from amazon and after connecting it to the fuel rail I found the engine was running with effectively zero fuel pressure, despite hearing the fuel pumps spinning away.

After further diagnosis I found the high pressure fuel pump was simply wired backwards. The pump with no polarity listed was actually polarized. My low pressure transfer pump was the only one providing fuel!

After a rewire of the HP pump and a rest of the req fuel value and VE1 table my car cranked up, warmed up, and idle well! Now I can actually start tuning it. :yeah!:

Thanks for the help.

Miguel

Image
2016-06-1First Good Tune GTV_TS.msq
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