New User from Canada

A general forum and a place for initial or prospective users. See Manuals/Documentation
Click here to enter
Contact a Forum Administrator
If unsure where to post, post in this sub-forum.

Moderators: jsmcortina, muythaibxr

Post Reply
KawasakiGuy
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:58 pm
Location: South Western Ontario

New User from Canada

Post by KawasakiGuy »

Hi,

New user here and just wanted to get the ball rolling with a introduction.

I just ordered a premade Microsquirt and harness to put FI on one of my bikes.

The motorcycle is a 1978 KZ650 B2 Kawasaki, It has a 720cc high compression forged big bore kit and some GPZ750 camshafts with a mild port job.
I am installing some 1984 GPZ1100 throttle bodies with the stock TPS, I am thinking about running a EDIS-4 ignition controller with coil and a trigger wheel/VR setup.

I read a few places that data logging can be done with a Palm Pilot, I was thinking about this since I already have all that stuff and the associated serial port cables.

I was able to download Palm Edit and Palm Log, but can't find Palm Tune anywhere - Can anybody help me out with a copy of Palm Tune?

Once I start getting all the parts together I will have more questions.

Cheers, Alex.
prof315
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 3760
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:13 am
Location: Melbourne, FL

Re: New User from Canada

Post by prof315 »

You might want to check the dates on the info about using a Palm Pilot..... And that's the problem with search engines. These forums and the manuals are the best place to get CURRENT information about Megasquirt and it's capabilities. AFAIK there hasn't been any Palm Pilot development in many years.
Linfert Performance/321 Motorsports
SCCA 2019 SM National Champion Crew Chief
SCCA 2023 FP National Champion Tuner/electrical engineer
100s of MS systems built installed and tuned
Support the developers!
jsmcortina
Site Admin
Posts: 39585
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 1:34 am
Location: Birmingham, UK
Contact:

Re: New User from Canada

Post by jsmcortina »

prof315 wrote:AFAIK there hasn't been any Palm Pilot development in many years.
At least ten years as a guess?

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
KawasakiGuy
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:58 pm
Location: South Western Ontario

Re: New User from Canada

Post by KawasakiGuy »

Thanks for the reply's.

I was just trying to use something I had hanging around, I have the unit and all the cables.

I saw from this thread that there are user out there within the last 3 years still using them, so that is what put me onto it :

http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?f=73 ... 78683396e4

Its old tech but it is still functional, nice thing about my unit it that it runs for a long time on 2 x AAA batteries. The other
plus is its closed to the outside world so no texts, emails, or calls while your using it.

If I can't find that one tuning program that's OK, I can still log with it and use my old laptop to run tuning software.

I realize its going backward but I want to give it a try, If I find its crap then I will go to Android.

Cheers.
LAV1000
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 1489
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:18 am
Location: Netherlands

Re: New User from Canada

Post by LAV1000 »

KawasakiGuy wrote:Hi,

I am installing some 1984 GPZ1100 throttle bodies with the stock TPS, I am thinking about running a EDIS-4 ignition controller with coil and a trigger wheel/VR setup.
Any particular reason to use an Edis-4 controller ?
You could also use 2 twin coils controlled by the megasquirt.
Matt Cramer
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 17499
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:08 pm

Re: New User from Canada

Post by Matt Cramer »

I wouldn't use EDIS on a motorcycle at this point - you're stuck with whatever rev limit Ford put in the module, and chances are it's too low for a motorcycle.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
KawasakiGuy
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:58 pm
Location: South Western Ontario

Re: New User from Canada

Post by KawasakiGuy »

Someone else suggested that EDIS system, probably not knowing there was a built in rev limit.

It is a 2V street motor I am putting it on and the rev limit is 9000.

I was told the Dyna S and coils would work but may tax the electrical system with the addition of a O2 sensor and fuel pump, so that is why
I was looking at the trigger wheel and HE/VR setup.

I also been looking at the Dyna 2000 but not sure if it uses less amps than the Dyna S setup.

I am open to any option that will work best, as I am in the progress of gathering the components.
LAV1000
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 1489
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:18 am
Location: Netherlands

Re: New User from Canada

Post by LAV1000 »

KawasakiGuy wrote:Someone else suggested that EDIS system, probably not knowing there was a built in rev limit.

It is a 2V street motor I am putting it on and the rev limit is 9000.

I was told the Dyna S and coils would work but may tax the electrical system with the addition of a O2 sensor and fuel pump, so that is why
I was looking at the trigger wheel and HE/VR setup.

I also been looking at the Dyna 2000 but not sure if it uses less amps than the Dyna S setup.

I am open to any option that will work best, as I am in the progress of gathering the components.
Why use add on systems all the brains are in the ms unit.
You only need ignition coils witch are controlled by the ms unit.
You have to check the microsquirts manual on how and witch coils. :RTFM:

If the kwak doesn't use a CDI system at the moment then the current draw stays the same, ignition wise.

The biggest current consumer in this set up would be the fuel pump, find a small one.
100Ltr/hr@ 3 bar or even less should be enough for your 650cc 4 cylinder.

I converted an Italian bike to EFI.
Alternator and charge system were not over engineered so to speak. :D
So I did run into charge problems.
Solved the problem by using a led headlight.
You don't want to run a motorcycle whit out lights, even daytime !
KawasakiGuy
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:58 pm
Location: South Western Ontario

Re: New User from Canada

Post by KawasakiGuy »

The motor has no CDI, just Dyna 3 ohm "green" coils and a Dyna S ignition plate.

Yes, looking at a updated stator and regulator to handle the extra power draw from the pump and O2 sensor. Now
looking at fuel only control if not using the EDIS, use coils to trigger tach output.
LED bulbs will lower the battery drain brought on by the extra accessories FI needs.
There are lots of small pumps that run low amps, its just hard finding something to
fit, not too much room on a bike.

I have previously used a Innovate LM1 system to do some data logging, so I am not completely illiterate to this stuff, I just
have to get stuck in and start reading the manual.
Below is a link to a video of my drag bike, at that time I was using a battery and coils with the Dyna ignition, Alcohol fuel
as shown by the AFR captured.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYPMGOfNpUs

Thanks for the replies.
LAV1000
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 1489
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:18 am
Location: Netherlands

Re: New User from Canada

Post by LAV1000 »

That Dyna s system, seems like just a dumb points replacement, 0r am I wrong ?
When using a microsquirt you can control ignition as a function of rpm and throttle opening.

Since compression went up on your bike the oem ignition setup(advance curve) wouldn't be sufficient.
When I did a efi conversion I started with ignition first, just rpm based.
Check the manual on this I think you need a "bip" to ignite those Dyna's or chance over to "electronic" coils.
Don't trough those Dyna's away, those are good coils.

GPZ body's use 2.5bar injectors and the impedance (Z) might be to low for microsquirt.
Chance over to 3.0 bar types like magneti marelli, you need to adapt the injector on the body.
That way there are more (small car) injectors and parts available.
The IWP042 was to big for my bike 330cc/cylinder.
DSC_9915.jpg
DSC_9912.jpg
KawasakiGuy
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:58 pm
Location: South Western Ontario

Re: New User from Canada

Post by KawasakiGuy »

Yes the Dyna S is just a dumb points replacement plate that uses a HE type rotor and two pickup sensors, the rotor is on the end of the stock spring type ignition advancer.

The Dyna 2000 is a more sophisticated ignition system with a fixed rotor that does not use the stock advancer, advance timing is programmable and there is more spark energy available
from the control box. Much more possibilities with that system but it is more $$.

Thanks for posting those pictures, you did a real nice job on that fuel rail and your TPS mounting.
I have the stock brazed fuel rail and it is in good shape so I am going to use it, I may opt to make a rail if I don't like the way it looks.
The GPZ1100 throttle bodies bolt straight up to my cylinder head so cutting and respacing is not going to be needed.

After doing some searching I think I am going to use a ZX6R in tank fuel pump replacement and build myself a auxiliary fuel tank to house it in. I am planning on using Ford type high impedance
injectors meant for a 2.3L 4 cylinder, I can a get flow matched refurnished set pretty reasonably. Since I am only looking at about 75 HP I don't need a high flow system, everything I looked
at was way overkill for what I want to achieve.
ewflyer
Experienced MS/Extra'er
Posts: 233
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:38 am

Re: New User from Canada

Post by ewflyer »

Seems like a lot of old GPZ1100 throttle bodies are being given a new life.

Here's a guy who is using the same GPZ1100 throttle bodies in what is a pretty complicated FI project on a Honda VFR400 (the NC30 model): http://blog.familjenjonsson.org/blog/ca ... otorcycle/. He's well into the project and though he isn't moving it along that fast he's certainly very good at the technical issues.

Regarding your problem with choosing and implementing a fuel pump solution for your KZ650 project, I'd suggest you look at the fuel pump Honda uses in their VT1300 series of motorcycles (a group that includes the fuel injected versions of the VT1300 Sabre/Stateline/Interstate/Fury). This fuel pump is not an in-tank pump, instead it is a self-contained unit that is a really good all-in-one solution contained inside its own aluminum housing that holds a good amount of fuel, which acts as a "swirl pot" to prevent air bubbles getting into the pump itself. Inside this aluminum housing is the fuel pump plus a sock-type fuel filter and a fuel pressure regulator.

Here's a link to Partzilla.com so you can see how surprisingly cheap Honda sells this pump, only $95 (U.S.) for an all-in-one solution for your FI project fuel pump/fuel system needs: http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/H ... parts.html

Here's what it looks like (with a soda can so you can judge its size) and you can see on the aluminum casting that the Japanese company Keihin is the sub-contractor for Honda on these fuel pumps:
Image

And another picture with the pump wearing the brackets that I found to mount it on my recent FI project bike (a Suzuki GSF400), and when I put the brackets on the pump my daughter thought it looked just like her piggy bank:
Image

Honda (Keihin) actually produces two versions of this pump that both use the same external aluminum housing, one is for the larger bike engines like the 1300cc V-twins on the VT1300 series and the other version is for the smaller displacement Honda Rancher four-wheel ATVs. I've used the Rancher version on both of my projects because they were small engine bikes, one is a 250cc engine and the other is a 400cc engine. For your KZ650 (with its engine upgrades) I'd use the version that Honda puts on their big V-twins.

This pump is a typical FI system external pump, it has three fuel lines: one is a supply from the fuel tank, the second line is for the excess fuel return to the fuel tank, and the third is the pressurized fuel to the injector fuel rail. I put a Pingle fuel injection manifold on my fuel tank (to replace the bike's original vacuum-actuated fuel petcock) by using a metric adaptor plate that they (Pingle) also sell.

And... finally, if you read through the NC30 FI project that I linked to above you might notice that he's using something called a QuadraMAP instead of a single MAP sensor. I also use this item, it's produced by a guy who also lives in Ontario Canada (Scarborough). Here's his website: http://efi.ttrignition.com/products.html
LAV1000
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 1489
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:18 am
Location: Netherlands

Re: New User from Canada

Post by LAV1000 »

KawasakiGuy wrote:Yes the Dyna S is just a dumb points replacement plate that uses a HE type rotor and two pickup sensors, the rotor is on the end of the stock spring type ignition advancer.

The Dyna 2000 is a more sophisticated ignition system with a fixed rotor that does not use the stock advancer, advance timing is programmable and there is more spark energy available
from the control box. Much more possibilities with that system but it is more $$.

Thanks for posting those pictures, you did a real nice job on that fuel rail and your TPS mounting.
I have the stock brazed fuel rail and it is in good shape so I am going to use it, I may opt to make a rail if I don't like the way it looks.
The GPZ1100 throttle bodies bolt straight up to my cylinder head so cutting and respacing is not going to be needed.

After doing some searching I think I am going to use a ZX6R in tank fuel pump replacement and build myself a auxiliary fuel tank to house it in. I am planning on using Ford type high impedance
injectors meant for a 2.3L 4 cylinder, I can a get flow matched refurnished set pretty reasonably. Since I am only looking at about 75 HP I don't need a high flow system, everything I looked
at was way overkill for what I want to achieve.
Why doubt on using the microsquirt as an ignition controller ?
Check the manuals on how to use an extra part (bip) and use your existing dyna coils.

Yes you need a thooted wheel and a sensor VR or Hall or Opto.
See picture, opto type not much recommended but works for me.
But if you make it this way you don't need expensive stuff to make it work.
For instance start with 1 dyna s (VR,Hall ?) sensor and modify that single thooted wheel to an 12-1.
You have to lock the mechanical advance device.
And yes only 10 % or less over here is bike related, most is car based.
But this a DIY system hence price and flexibility.

Fuelpump, did put mine under the battery tray.
Had to made some custom connections, using some banjo eyes and curved steel tubing.
Used the same principle on fuelrail for tb's
That 95 usd of EWflyers pump and pressure regulator is a no brainer.
KawasakiGuy
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:58 pm
Location: South Western Ontario

Re: New User from Canada

Post by KawasakiGuy »

Thanks for all the good advice.

I have seen those external ATV pumps before, the housing is just a enclosure for a in tank fuel pump. I plan to make my own
housing which is basically a non pressurized auxiliary fuel tank that is gravity fed from the main fuel tank. I want to use a Bosch
adjustable fuel pressure regulator, fairly compact and not that expensive.
aux tank 1.JPG
aux tank 2.JPG
I also have a Kawasaki OEM electronic ignition and IC ignitor box which is the same system the GPZ1100 used as stock, so I could
also use that ignition if I needed to. I can fix a 2" OD 36-1 toothed wheel and HE sensor under the stock points cover - It is just extra
work down the line. I have a cannibalized fixed advancer base I can pin the toothed wheel to.
650 ignition setupJPG.JPG
I will read up on hooking up to the coils to get my base system running.
LAV1000
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 1489
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:18 am
Location: Netherlands

Re: New User from Canada

Post by LAV1000 »

When making your own fuel pump holder try to adapt something like this:
http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/media/c ... 947pdf.pdf
Into your design.

Why using an adjustable FPR ?
Most injectors work well at 3 bar.
When dropping or upping the pressure, injector spray patern might be effected.
If it is just a matter of more or less fuel you can adapt those value's in the microsquirt.

If you choose an fpr try to find one witch are a lot of them (carparts !) so if it goes down it is easy and cheap to find the same one.
This goes for all the parts you need.
Post Reply