Edit* wastespark on a lx9 with factory crank wheel help

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Rideharder
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Edit* wastespark on a lx9 with factory crank wheel help

Post by Rideharder »

Current set up:
I am running a propane turbo'd gm 3.4 v6 with a locked out dizzy and a msd 6al-2 programable box, all is good in the world. But...

I plan on swapping to a later model 3400 * I now picked up a lx9 3500*, with the lack of carb intakes for these engines I have started looking into how to run my timing. It's a blow through carb so fuel is already covered. I can't fit a distributor behind this intake so I've been thinking on running the factory sensors to trigger a ecu

My plan was to run ls coils and a ecu to Control my timing from the cam and crank sensors. Being new to this world I don't know what box is best for me or if it will work at all. Again I only need ignition and not fuel and to be able to fire 6 separate coils. Boost retard, 2 step, nlts, rev limit and data log would all be nice features also

*new plan is run waste spark, need advice on what to get and how to set up. Slowly relearning *

Whats everyone recommendations also vvt would be nice but not needed at this time
Last edited by Rideharder on Thu May 11, 2017 10:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Matt Cramer
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Re: Timing on a gm 3400 la1

Post by Matt Cramer »

If VVT is in the cards, you'll want an MS3. The MS2 is able to do everything else on the list with the right mods, though.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
Six_Shooter
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Re: Timing on a gm 3400 la1

Post by Six_Shooter »

As Matt said MS2 will do what you want.

I would look at going fuel control as well. The difference between carb fuel delivery and EFI fuel delivery on a turbo engine is huge and can really fine tune everywhere, from idle to redline and have no compromises. You can use the stock intake, and not need to build a carb intake for the LA1.

MS2 with the right mods will run 6 cyl ignition in waste spark and or sequential, you can also run the OEM DIS ignition with an MS2 or microsquirt. The OEM DIS is wastespark which is what I've used for years on my engines. My Nissan turbo L28 had the GM 60 degree V6 DIS system installed, along with the 3500 (LX9) that is currently in my car. Going back farther, I've used the same DIS system on my Franken60 (gen1 block, gen2 internals, and a gen 3 top end), with turbo. The OEM DIS has worked for me up to 20 PSIG on my L28, it's a good system.

At the very least you will need a crank trigger wheel. The LA1 has a 7x wheel that works with the OEM DIS or can be used by an MS ECU to run waste spark, to run sequential you will need to also use the cam sensor, and trigger 6 coils individually. If you are triggering the coils directly, maybe going to a 36-1 wheel would be a good move to get more accurate engine position and speed info over the 7x wheel.

Most people see no difference between wastespark and sequential ignition, so I'm not sure it's really worth the extra effort to go full sequential.
Tha Toy: 1973 Datsun 240Z Turbocharged, and loads of fun, now MS'd
Tha Otha Toy: 1923 T-bucket Hot Rod, Currently Sniper'd
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Rideharder
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Re: Timing on a gm 3400 la1

Post by Rideharder »

My fuel supply isn't able to be used in efi, I run a propane setup so it a vapor fuel, I have that down pat on my 3.4 (Gen 1) at 18psi. I want to run the Gen 3 engine to make use of nice heads, roller cam an better mains

So a ms 2 will work off my 7x wheel and play nice with the waste spark setup. I dont need the ms3 pro for a vvt setup, the basic ms3 would do it for me?

Sorry if these are basic questions. New ish to the world of ecu tuning. My msd 6al-2 programable is the most I've played with
billr
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Re: Timing on a gm 3400 la1

Post by billr »

The "basic" MS3 will handle VVT, it is the MS2 that won't.

By the way, I think there are some members here using MS to control fueling with propane and CNG.
Six_Shooter
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Re: Timing on a gm 3400 la1

Post by Six_Shooter »

Right... Propane... I'm not real familiar with it, so do what you need to do there, but you'll need to make a manifold for the carb/throttle body (I assume you're using the carb as just a TB, since that's how I've seen most propane setups in the past. Isn't there port injection for propane now?

VVT isn't even an issue here, the LA1 doesn't have it. You need to get to the LZx (Gen 3.5 or 4 depending on who you talk to) engines before VVT is a consideration.

Anyway, yes, MS2 or basic MS3 will control the OEM DIS or read the 7x wheel without issue. Though keep in mind I haven't used an MS with the 7x directly, just with the OEM DIS system. I know there's built in decoder for the 7x wheel though and others have used that wheel directly.

Yes, the gen3 engine is a fun engine....

LX9 in my 240Z (Yes that's an LA1 UIM, it made the swap easier)...
BronzeLX9.jpg
Tha Toy: 1973 Datsun 240Z Turbocharged, and loads of fun, now MS'd
Tha Otha Toy: 1923 T-bucket Hot Rod, Currently Sniper'd
Tha Daily: 2005 Chevy Blazer
Tha Summer Daily: 1987 Buick Skyhawk hatchback
Tha Long Term Project: 1985 GMC S-10 Jimmy, hasn't been fun for a while
Rideharder
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Re: Timing on a gm 3400 la1

Post by Rideharder »

Well I have now picked up a lx9, how are you controlling yours. A external crank wheel? I Havnt read up on how to setup the ms3 yet but I think this will be my plan
Six_Shooter
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Re: Edit* wastespark on a lx9 with factory crank wheel help

Post by Six_Shooter »

Yes, currently I am using an external 7x wheel that mimics the stock 7x wheel to drive the DIS setup used from 1987 to about 2004 on teh 60 degree V6, because I was using OBD1 GM ECMs for a long time, and only sorta recently switched to MS.

The MS will read the stock crank wheel though, I plan to move over to that eventually, but for now, what I have works.

I need to take some newer pictures, but this is what I swapped over to the LX9 in my Datsun. This is a picture of WAY back when it was first made in 2002 or so, for my Franken60 based on a gen1 block.
crank trigger detail.jpg
This a picture of when I used the same trigger wheel and part of the sensor mount on the L28 in my Datsun (before swapping the LX9 in to it).
DIS04.jpg
Tha Toy: 1973 Datsun 240Z Turbocharged, and loads of fun, now MS'd
Tha Otha Toy: 1923 T-bucket Hot Rod, Currently Sniper'd
Tha Daily: 2005 Chevy Blazer
Tha Summer Daily: 1987 Buick Skyhawk hatchback
Tha Long Term Project: 1985 GMC S-10 Jimmy, hasn't been fun for a while
Rideharder
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Re: Edit* wastespark on a lx9 with factory crank wheel help

Post by Rideharder »

I know this is a mega squirt page and all but, I got a idea to control all this with my msd box, can I feed my crank sensor into my icm (waste spark) and use the "tack out" to go to my msd box, use my msd to tell the icm when to fire and have a bypass wired to key power, once key is off "crank" back to "on" it triggers the bypass so the msd runs it

This would simplify my ordeal as I only want spark and I have the box on my s10
Rideharder
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Re: Edit* wastespark on a lx9 with factory crank wheel help

Post by Rideharder »

s***, as it turns out the lx9 3500 has a 24x wheel, not a 7x. I think this will complicate my idea
Six_Shooter
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Re: Edit* wastespark on a lx9 with factory crank wheel help

Post by Six_Shooter »

Rideharder wrote:s***, as it turns out the lx9 3500 has a 24x wheel, not a 7x. I think this will complicate my idea

Even if it was a 7x wheel your idea wouldn't work. The extra notch would really screw with RPM calculations and cylinder count.

You can use the 24x wheel, feed it directly to the MS, then have the MS trigger the MSD box or coil(s) directly.
Tha Toy: 1973 Datsun 240Z Turbocharged, and loads of fun, now MS'd
Tha Otha Toy: 1923 T-bucket Hot Rod, Currently Sniper'd
Tha Daily: 2005 Chevy Blazer
Tha Summer Daily: 1987 Buick Skyhawk hatchback
Tha Long Term Project: 1985 GMC S-10 Jimmy, hasn't been fun for a while
Rideharder
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Re: Edit* wastespark on a lx9 with factory crank wheel help

Post by Rideharder »

But doesn't the 3400icm think for it's self and send a 6 pulse out for the tach, I could use this to trigger my msd off the points wire, and send my coil neg back into the icm to distribute.
That's my hope at least. From reading the factory ignition control module took the 7 tooth trigger and it sent out a 6 pulse for a tach
Six_Shooter
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Re: Edit* wastespark on a lx9 with factory crank wheel help

Post by Six_Shooter »

Yeah... that won't work. The trigger to the ICM is the crank position sensor, so trying to send a signal "back in" from an MSD box isn't going to work. The output of the MSD boxc is far to string for the 5V EST input.

Yes, the 3400 ICM sends a conditioned output to the ECM that ignores the home notch. But you're making this far, far more complicated than it needs to be.

If you want to use the 3400 ICM, just use it, trigger it off a 7x wheel, and use the coils on it to ignite the spark. You can control timing with an MS through the EST/ESC/Bypass pins and be done with it.

Alternatively, you can run the LX9 crank trigger directly to an MS and have the MS trigger the coils.

There's no real need for an MSD in this, especially one that is meant for a single coil, which I assume is the type you are referring to based on your previous described setup (I.E. a 6AL, Digital 6, etc). Using a single coil MSD means that you would need to use a dizzy and a dizzy would already have a way of triggering the (non-DIS) ICM, via the reluctor inside the dizzy.

Don't over think this or make it overly complicated simplicity is best here.
Tha Toy: 1973 Datsun 240Z Turbocharged, and loads of fun, now MS'd
Tha Otha Toy: 1923 T-bucket Hot Rod, Currently Sniper'd
Tha Daily: 2005 Chevy Blazer
Tha Summer Daily: 1987 Buick Skyhawk hatchback
Tha Long Term Project: 1985 GMC S-10 Jimmy, hasn't been fun for a while
Rideharder
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Re: Edit* wastespark on a lx9 with factory crank wheel help

Post by Rideharder »

Ok thanks, I'm just trying to reuse what I have, but seems like it's impossible.

OK so plan is now...
3500 gm with waste spark
My needs are
-Multi reluctor wheel capability mainly 24x (58x and 7x) for future ls upgrades/ 3400 swap if I can't find a replacement 3500)
-2 step
-boost retard/vac advance ( running 18psi.. Reuse my 4 bar gm sensor)
-no lift shifting
*Data log would be cool

From my searching the microsquirt seems to be my ticket, yes, no pros /cons
Last edited by Rideharder on Mon May 15, 2017 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Edit* wastespark on a lx9 with factory crank wheel help

Post by jsmcortina »

As you are considering changing the crank wheel, the only pattern I would consider out of those is 60-2 (58X) the others are oddball GM specials and best avoided. Or if you just want a regular toothed wheel, consider the very popular 36-1 too.

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Rideharder
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Re: Edit* wastespark on a lx9 with factory crank wheel help

Post by Rideharder »

I don't pan on changing any, just my motor options dictate I what I need, the 3500 has the 24 ls1swap wheel, a la1 3400 has the 7x my alum lc9 ls has other. I want to run with the 24 inside the 3500
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Re: Edit* wastespark on a lx9 with factory crank wheel help

Post by Six_Shooter »

Using an MS, any replacement 660 will be able to be triggered directly into the MS. The internal crank triggers can be used by changing some settings in the MS. The only reason I'm still using my 7x and DIS is because it's what I'm used to and easiest with the MS2 and wanted to make only a few changes so that if I had any issues I could figure it out easily. I plan to swap to a different ignition setup, likely using the internal trigger wheel and triggering coils directly, especially since I have an MS3X to go in place of the MS2.
Tha Toy: 1973 Datsun 240Z Turbocharged, and loads of fun, now MS'd
Tha Otha Toy: 1923 T-bucket Hot Rod, Currently Sniper'd
Tha Daily: 2005 Chevy Blazer
Tha Summer Daily: 1987 Buick Skyhawk hatchback
Tha Long Term Project: 1985 GMC S-10 Jimmy, hasn't been fun for a while
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