Obsolete hardware

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Obsolete hardware

Postby prof315 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:19 am

So I'm almost certainly going to cause an uproar here but I need to vent a bit.

I see lots of posts all over the forum where people are having trouble with obsolete old school EFI hardware. I.E. EDIS, DIS and low impedance injectors. When MS was in it's infancy and we were using slow processors and had very limited choices on crank signal input decoders it made sense for the very same reasons OEMs developed the hardware to begin with. But like the automotive industry MS has evolved. Current MS2/Extra code supports over 25 native trigger patterns and the generic wheel decoder allows you to run a crank trigger on ANYTHING you can fit a wheel to.

Ford's EDIS went out of production in 1997 and has some serious limitations including a non adjustable internal rev limiter.

GM's DIS stayed around longer but has always been a little tricky to get it working correctly with MS. Module reliability has been an issue and there are so many variations finding the correct wiring info can be tough.

Low Z injectors are still around but unless you are running exotic fuel ( methanol, propane etc...) or trying to make very big power per cylinder the glut of relatively inexpensive Hi Z injectors now on the market makes it seem foolish to me to deal with the hassle. And old Low Z injectors have mediocre spray patterns and tend to be very very noisy electrically.

There's also the issue of finding quality parts for both EDIS and DIS. EDIS wiring harnesses cannot be found new period.

This isn't to say that some of this sub components aren't still useful. EDIS trigger wheels, sensors and coils work great with a Quadspark or the appropriate number of BIP373s in the ECU. GM DIS modules and coils also work well if you gut the module and convert it to a "dumb" coil pack driven by BIPs or a Quadspark....easy to find at the junkyard, nice hot spark and every parts store around still carries coils.

Ok rant over :mrgreen:
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Re: Obsolete hardware

Postby DaveEFI » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:19 am

Interesting. Do wonder how many need a rev limiter as such? I've been driving since long before they were around - valve float was the limiting factor. But a sympathetic driver might know when an engine is close to its limit anyway. Unless racing.
A vast number of posts on here are about getting a crank sensor working with MS. And coil dwell, etc. How to power then so they don't burn out, etc. EDIS largely gets round all those.
Many don't start with a clean sheet and unlimited budget. Which may well mean re-using existing parts like Lo-Z injectors.
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Re: Obsolete hardware

Postby prof315 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:19 am

I have NEVER had an unlimited budget, but when I can buy a set of 8 reconditioned and flow matched 300-700cc/min injectors for $100 or less why on earth would I screw around with Low Zs?
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Re: Obsolete hardware

Postby DaveEFI » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:43 am

I'll give you a good example from the UK. One very popular engine to convert to MS is the Rover V8 which was the first EFI engine in the UK. With a Lucas/Bosch flapper system. Analogue ECU so very difficult to map correctly - many weren't that good when new. MS transforms it, for not a large cost, if you keep all the original hardware.

The injectors are Lo-Z. Later Lucas versions used Hi-Z. But both the fitting to the inlet manifold and fuel rail are different. If course these can be changed for later - but the coolant plumbing varies greatly between bolt on inlet manifolds too.

And I doubt you'd find 8 reconditioned flow tested injectors in the UK for $100. Or in most other countries either. You may not realise how lucky you are in the US for such things. :D
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Re: Obsolete hardware

Postby billr » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:35 am

I may be wrong, but I feel low-z will always have two operational advantages: less DT and less change in DT due to voltage. Both make getting "perfect" DT values less important and of less concern when injector-to-injector DTs aren't exactly the same. How much advantage is there? I don't know, probably not much, but Jean B. offers the P & H boards so inexpensive that even the possibility of better/easier tuning makes low-Z my choice.
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Re: Obsolete hardware

Postby Six_Shooter » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:42 pm

I haven't had any issue getting GM DIS to run off MS. The one minor issue I had I cured by changing the dwell type. I like using it, because then I don't need to run multiple BIP373s or external ignitors... *shrug*
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Re: Obsolete hardware

Postby Matt Cramer » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:59 am

Six_Shooter wrote:I haven't had any issue getting GM DIS to run off MS. The one minor issue I had I cured by changing the dwell type. I like using it, because then I don't need to run multiple BIP373s or external ignitors... *shrug*


Also, currently there isn't a way to directly decode the wheel used on the C3I ignition or some Northstars.

However, swapping a GMDIS onto something that never had it (even as a factory option on another year of the same engine) would be a weird move at this point. Working with what you have makes sense. Going out and buying something outdated generally does not.
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Re: Obsolete hardware

Postby Six_Shooter » Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:16 pm

Matt Cramer wrote:
Six_Shooter wrote:I haven't had any issue getting GM DIS to run off MS. The one minor issue I had I cured by changing the dwell type. I like using it, because then I don't need to run multiple BIP373s or external ignitors... *shrug*


Also, currently there isn't a way to directly decode the wheel used on the C3I ignition or some Northstars.

However, swapping a GMDIS onto something that never had it (even as a factory option on another year of the same engine) would be a weird move at this point. Working with what you have makes sense. Going out and buying something outdated generally does not.



Part of it for me is that I've used this same setup on 3 different engines now. Originally on a 3.2L 60 degree V6 (.030 over 3.1), because I used a gen 1 2.8L block, with no provision for mounting a sensor in the block to read the crank mounted trigger wheel.

I then transfered this same setup to my Nissan L28, because I was also using an OBD1 Delco (GM) ECM to run the engine, so it just made sense.

I then swapped the setup again to a 3.5L 60 degree V6, I was still using the OBD1 Delco ECM at this point, and wasn't planning on installing the MS for a while. The MS at the time seemed to have some trouble reading the LX9 trigger wheel anyway.

I'm not sure I completely agree that it doesn't make sense. It's an easy setup to use, it's just a different way to go about getting a reliable and strong ignition system on an engine. That being said I do plan at some point to move to COP or CnP coils that are triggered individually from my MS3s, mostly for the hands on on doing that.
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