Mini 3 Port Injection

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mrbell
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Post by mrbell »

I've determined that the problem facing us now, is that we wont' know which bank to fire.
Say we have injectors a and b in the software, and ports 1 and 2 on the motor. Currently, there is no way to match these two up because the software doesn't appear to support tracking cam angle for fuel injection. So making it fire a-a-b-b would be trivial to get 2 squirts to each port, but w/o a cam sensor a-a could quite easily be firing into the wrong port, and we'd never be able to sync them up.
If I were willing to re-write all the injection code, or at least go over it all, I could make it work. But there's alot in there that I've seen that relys on crank angle. Converting every instance to cam angle, and making sure the math is correct sounds a bit daunting.
Perhaps I'll wait for the UMS... seems a bit silly to wait for hardware to handle up to 16 sequential injectors, just to get 2...
slow_hemi6
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Post by slow_hemi6 »

UMS may never happen it might just end up being an expansion of the MS2 that is allready here for coders to start hacking on. :D
James the extra code guru may allready have some idea or progress into this with regards to doing sequential ignition for a 4cyl with the second trigger.It never hurts to ask though,perhaps in the embedded code section.
Find the Manuals up top under Quick links: Manuals. :RTFM:
Cheers Luke
eliotmansfield
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Mini 3 Port Injection

Post by eliotmansfield »

The extre code knows where No.1 is for spark via the wheel decoding add-ons,
so perhapps the mini problem is solvable also.



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mikesb
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Post by mikesb »

There's a little bit more to it than two sequential injections lined up to coincide with the opening of the first of the siamesed valves. The first injection must complete before the second valve opens, and the second injection must not start till the first valve has (nearly) closed. Otherwise you'll have unequal fueling between the cylinders. See figure 4 in the attached patent someone pointed us to a while ago, it's shown very well.

Definitely possible, just a bit tricky. Don't get sued for patent infringement :).

I hate figure 1, might just as well do TBI with that manifold.
cng1
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Mini 3 Port Injection

Post by cng1 »

"mikesb" wrote:
> I hate figure 1, might just as well do TBI with that manifold.

I'm looking at ways to even up the mixture on my A-series install, the current
plan is to use some ZX6R throttle bodies and add an extra set of
injectors upstream of the TBs. I'd plan to use similarly sized injectors,
using just the upstream ones on light throttle openings to give me an
SU-style wet manifold. At WOT the butterfly doesn't aid the mixing of
fuel and air so you may as well use the injectors close to the port in as
well.

Of course it's far from ideal but it's got to be better than the alternative.


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edis
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Post by edis »

Whats the problem with the standard mini injection?
Is it a poor solution to the problem?
or can it work well with megasquirt?

(sorry newbie to EFI)

I have a Carbed mini and just got MegaSquirt for the ignition, and am thinking about Fuel.

Ed
nobbi1977
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Post by nobbi1977 »

edis wrote:Whats the problem with the standard mini injection?
I think this point has been covered well in this post and done to death in many others. A quick search will provide a mine of information

Andi
tobyanscombe
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Post by tobyanscombe »

Kinda on topic but I have MSn'EDIS installed on a MG Midget in spark only mode at the moment.

Spent a couple of hours at a really good road in Croydon (one that activly seeks your involvment!) to set up the base spark (no vacuum yet as I wanted to get the 100kpa line sorted first) and managed to sort out a very smooth curve for power and torque. Power is up compared to the old dizzy (same needle in SU) and torque is most certainly up!

Final runs produced 84 Hp at the wheels with an estimated 105 at the flywheel (based on measured drag) with torque up to over 100Lb/ft from 3k to 6k, peaking at 105 Lb/ft.

All this from a 1310 with a 270 cam and a single SU! (not intending to start a numbers debate here) but start with the ignition side whilest thought goes into the fuelling side....

Now that 7 port heads are back and avalible (although not cheap!) it does offer a potential route.
cng1
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Mini 3 Port Injection

Post by cng1 »

"tobyanscombe" wrote:
> Final runs produced 84 Hp at the wheels with an estimated 105 at the flywheel (based on measured drag) with torque up to over 100Lb/ft from 3k to 6k, peaking at 105 Lb/ft.

Any chance of posting your ignition vex? it would be interesting to
compare and contrast with my own guesstimated one.


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tobyanscombe
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Post by tobyanscombe »

Chris - I'll do it tonight (on a different laptop). Looks like I could be borrowing a Weber 45 + mani next weekend so that will make an interesting comparison! Will have a LM1 by the next RR session so should get a better metering option (Cyls 2/3 and 1 have bossess welded with the idea of a dual input at some point).

How goes your project?
cng1
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Mini 3 Port Injection

Post by cng1 »

"tobyanscombe" wrote:
> How goes your project?

Busy doing suspension mods at the mo having been away for a week or so.
It's perfectly driveable and goes as well as a stock 1275 ever will but
I'm planning on making up a new manifold at some point soon to move the
injectors away from the ports to give the fuel a bit more chance to mix.


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tobyanscombe
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Post by tobyanscombe »

Here you go...Still not quite right but a good stab!

No pinking on RR but there is a little bit on the road when going from cruise to full throttle and I need to get some vac advance sorted. There is now a bit of software for a Pocket PC that I can use to do more on the road (I can mount it and see where the problems areas are).

Oh, any way of getting a full 3D map? (rpm,tps,map)
Bill Shurvinton
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Post by Bill Shurvinton »

tobyanscombe wrote: Oh, any way of getting a full 3D map? (rpm,tps,map)
What you posted 'was' a 3D map. Confusing I know as you only have 2 vertices.
cng1
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Mini 3 Port Injection

Post by cng1 »

"tobyanscombe" wrote:
> Here you go...

Couple of quick observations, squidge up the rpm bins so that you can
set up a valley at your desired RPM speed, that'll help stabilise idle.
The other is that you seem to be bringing more advance in earlier than
I have, still if that's what the rolling road says then I shall tweak
my map to reflect that. The peak values are spot on compared to mine
though so that's very reasurring. Thanks.


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volodkovich
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Post by volodkovich »

Hi Everyone,

I'm about embark on my MSnEDIS project on my mini 1000 and was wondering if anyone could give me a few tips. I figured people in this thread would know what they are talking about.

I'm starting off getting it running on a standard 998 just incase i melt a piston or do something equally stupid. Later on i am building up a supercharged 1275 and plan on running MS, the 998 is just a experiment to see if i can get it working properly.

Now im going for a wet manifold system with 2 injectors firing 4 squirts alternating. The problem i have is i'm not sure which way i should organise this.
Should i run the TB and injectors at about the same place as the stock SU will be - as in the emerald midget system, or should i make up a plenum and run the TB and injectors on the outside of this plenum? Will this even make a difference to the intake charge the cylinders see?(i would assume the distnace between here and each valve is long enough for the pulse's to mix up into an even flow?)

Most of the turbo minis i have seen run the injectors and TB where the SU sits, without a plenum, so i guess this is the best idea?

Thanks for your ideas,
Rob
Dars
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Post by Dars »

I have some pictures of my setup here. Sorry but the page is in Norwegian.

I have driven just a few km with this setup so i can't say it it a sucsess yet. But it feels alright with 1bar boost. And the spark plugs seems to have the same colour.

Dag Roar
cng1
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Mini 3 Port Injection

Post by cng1 »

If you use the standard manifold and put the injectors upstream of the
butterfly then that should be just fine.


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danc8000
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Post by danc8000 »

Do any of you mind answering a couple of questions which all relate to fuelling, specifically idle pulse widths:

Are you running port or TBI?
How many injectors are you running?
How far are your injectors from the head face?
What cc/min are they and at what fuel pressure?
and finally

What idle pulsewidths do you run at what temperatures?

Many many thanks

Dan
cng1
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Mini 3 Port Injection

Post by cng1 »

"danc8000" wrote:
> Are you running port or TBI?

Port injection

> How many injectors are you running?

1 in each port, ie 2 total.

> How far are your injectors from the head face?

1 inch.

> What cc/min are they and at what fuel pressure?

214cc/min @3bar

I'd not do it that way if starting from scratch. I will soon be
re-engineering the inlet manifold to move the injectors further away, 5"
is the aim.


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danc8000
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Post by danc8000 »

Thank you cng1, much appreciated.

Can you start me what sort of cranking pulsewidths you need to run with that setup please?
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