No luck starting-would appreciate help

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No luck starting-would appreciate help

Postby subarvair » Sun May 13, 2012 2:19 pm

Suby eg33 12/1 triggers, cops wired to 3x with subaru ignitor
MS3/3x sequential fuel and spark

After going through all the test modes and confirming timing at 10* BTDC, I tried to start several times without even a pop. Increasing PW to 4 or 5ms did not help. I put the timing light back on #1 just to confirm there was spark. Adjusting the R32 and R11 pots helped sync a little. Also tried changing the "ignition input capture" and "second trigger active on" edges to falling. What need to be done to inprove sync?
Would welcome anybodys input as to what I am doing wrong.
Mike
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Re: No luck starting-would appreciate help

Postby billr » Sun May 13, 2012 7:42 pm

Disable the fuel pump and let the engine sit long enough to "air out", in case it is flooded. Then, with FP still disabled, spray a quick shot of starting fluid into the intake. That will quickly verify if the ignition is working, then you can focus on fuel.

EDIT: Oops, I just looked at the .msq again, it's a plain 12 tooth crank trigger. I deleted the "question for James"!
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Re: No luck starting-would appreciate help

Postby subarvair » Sun May 13, 2012 8:22 pm

Thanks for the suggestion.
I'll try that tommorrow.
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Re: No luck starting-would appreciate help

Postby subarvair » Mon May 14, 2012 8:22 pm

Today was frustrating. In double checking everything, I discovered I was using the wrong firing order. I must be dislexic in my old age. After changing the coil wiring, injector wiring and entry in the sequential settings window, I was sure the engine would start but still nothing. When I try starting fluid, I only get an occasional backfire which cost me most of the hair on my right hand. I tried moving the crank timing to 5* and then tried different injector pulse settings from 2.0 to 6.0. This makes the cranking PW from 7 to 17ms. I get a little firing when I crack the throttle at 5 or 6ms but that seems like a very big setting. The calculated PW for my 3.3 is 1.7ms at 12afr.
At one point, I ran the coil output test with the plugs out so I could see the spark of each coil and double check the firing order. They all had a good spark. I did a leak down test on each cylinder today as this is a newly built engine.
I have attached another composite log.
One thing that concerns me is when the butterflies are closed, there is still not much suction at the IAC tube when the duty is 40%. The engine only cranks at 150 to 180 rpm, so maybe there wouldn't be much suction. Tommorrow, I plan to double check the cam shaft timing and try to adjust the crank trigger signal with r56.
I am a little short on ideas and would welcome other MSers input.
Mike
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Re: No luck starting-would appreciate help

Postby acres » Tue May 15, 2012 1:47 am

You have a sync loss in that last csv. In my limited experience, you need to have FLAWLESS trigger signals or you will experience very inconsistent operation. I assume VR sensors? With all 4 pots at full CCW is their any noise or false signals?
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Re: No luck starting-would appreciate help

Postby billr » Tue May 15, 2012 8:34 am

Yes indeed, there is no use in even connecting power to the fuel and ignition systems until trigger signal(s) and sync are OK. A few other comments:
1) Let's confirm you have cylinder #1 connected to spark/fuel drivers A, #6=B, #3=C, #2=D, #5=E, and #4=F; for your 1-6-3-2-5-4 firing order.
2) Some people prefer carb-cleaner instead of starting-fluid, feel it is less hazardous. You do not have to spray while cranking, you can be a long way away from the "danger zone"!
3) If it is firing back into the intake, then you either have a problem with valve timing/condition or improper ignition timing. Since it appears your sync isn't good, it is almost certain it is just the "improper ignition timing"...
4) I can appreciate that you want to use the stock trigger systems, but if you find yourself getting unduly frustrated trying to get this project going, you might want to consider scabbing-on a simpler "missing-tooth" crank wheel (like 60-2 or 36-1). Using that and your existing sequential ignition/injector wiring you could get it up-and-running on wasted-spark and semi-sequential fuel. Once there, then add in the cam signal for sequential, and then go back to the OEM crank trigger when you know all else is OK.

Edit: Lower the "cranking advance" from 10 deg to 0. That way no chance ignition will be too early. As soon as the engine fires advance table takes over.
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Re: No luck starting-would appreciate help

Postby subarvair » Tue May 15, 2012 9:55 pm

Bill(I assume),
Thanks for the input. Discovered today that the sync loss was caused by an occasional extra crank signal apparently caused by noise. Two CW turns on R56 seemed to solve this problem so will double check everything tomorrow and try again with 0* timing.
The calculated PW for my 3.3 at 12afr and 270cc injectors is 1.7ms which seems low. If I want to richen that, how much should I go?

Mike
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Re: No luck starting-would appreciate help

Postby billr » Tue May 15, 2012 11:02 pm

How did you get 1.7? When I enter 3300 cc, 270 cc/min, 6 injectors, and 12 AFR I get 16.8 msec for "required fuel"
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Re: No luck starting-would appreciate help

Postby subarvair » Wed May 16, 2012 8:11 am

I'm embarassed. I must have entered 330 instead of 3300. Another senior moment. I can't wait to try it today.
Thanks again.
Mike
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Re: No luck starting-would appreciate help

Postby subarvair » Wed May 16, 2012 7:52 pm

Today was not as exciting as I anticipated. I changed the required fuel to 14ms and tried to start with the composite log showing no sync loss. Yesterdays 2 turn CW adjustment of R56 seems to have soloved that problem.
What concerns me is there doesn't seems to be much suction on the intake tube. Thinking I might have gotten the intake and exh cam timing wrong, I took the valve covers off and the timing belt. Reinstalled and checked everything there but didn't find a problem.
Tried required fuel of 8ms, 10ms, 12ms, 14ms, and 16ms but no strong response from the engine.
When building the engine, I had the cams modestly ground. Would that create a starting problem?
Mike
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Re: No luck starting-would appreciate help

Postby billr » Wed May 16, 2012 9:23 pm

By "suction on the intake tube" are you talking about MAP (manifold pressure/vacuum)? What is the actual reading when engine is running? Posting a .msl log would help... Likewise, clarify about the cam grind. Surely the lobes weren't just ground down a "modest" amount to clean them up, right? I assume it was re-ground for increased lift or duration, but what is a "modest" increase? Does the TS "required fuel" calculator now come up with about 17 msec for you? If so, why are you trying wrong values, like everything but 17? Does it fire or start at all now? Now that sync is OK, have you verified ignition timing with a light?
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Re: No luck starting-would appreciate help

Postby billr » Sun May 20, 2012 8:13 pm

Where are you with it now, will it start at all?
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