Low Z noise problems

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Re: Low Z noise problems

Postby SymTech Laboratories » Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:11 pm

Rikard wrote:The mod that Sprig is talking about, is that the same mod that is documented on page 29 in this document?

http://www.bgsoflex.com/megameet2008/me ... gnding.pdf

Or is this something else?

Yes, it sounds like he's talking about the same modification. You can also clip the center pins on Q9 and Q12, and connect them to the DB37 connector with a piece of wire for a similar effect.
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Re: Low Z noise problems

Postby Tippy » Wed May 23, 2012 10:05 am

I too have MS2 v3.57 running low-Z's (qty 6) and dealing with voltage spikes. Sometimes it hits 21 volts.

I've read this thread several times (and Megameet) and it seems there has been many, many solutions to this issue but it seems no two are alike from others who have posted.

Is there a solution that does not require hacking a trace that is 100% guaranteed to work? Or is it trial-and-error?
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Re: Low Z noise problems

Postby Peter Florance » Thu May 24, 2012 3:43 am

Tippy wrote:I too have MS2 v3.57 running low-Z's (qty 6) and dealing with voltage spikes. Sometimes it hits 21 volts.

I've read this thread several times (and Megameet) and it seems there has been many, many solutions to this issue but it seems no two are alike from others who have posted.

Is there a solution that does not require hacking a trace that is 100% guaranteed to work? Or is it trial-and-error?

Page 18 of this thread; make sure your system passes the grounding test I suggest

http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=91&t=42233&start=340
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81 BMW Euro 528i ESP Car
60-2 Wheel LS2 Coils, Low Z Inj
Check your grounds: http://www.msextra.com/doc/general/grounding.html
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Re: Low Z noise problems

Postby Tippy » Thu May 24, 2012 7:01 am

Peter Florance wrote:Page 18 of this thread; make sure your system passes the grounding test I suggest

http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=91&t=42233&start=340


Peter, my grounding is exactly like the diagram you posted in that thread. All grounds from MS go to my intake (same ground lug Motronic uses) on one single lug. Is that the test?
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Re: Low Z noise problems

Postby Peter Florance » Thu May 24, 2012 7:53 am

Tippy wrote:
Peter Florance wrote:Page 18 of this thread; make sure your system passes the grounding test I suggest

http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=91&t=42233&start=340


Peter, my grounding is exactly like the diagram you posted in that thread. All grounds from MS go to my intake (same ground lug Motronic uses) on one single lug. Is that the test?

The test is, if you unplug MS box and measure resistance from any sensor's (MAT, CLT, TPS) ground to car/engine ground , you should not have continuity.
Peter Florance
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60-2 Wheel LS2 Coils, Low Z Inj
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Re: Low Z noise problems

Postby Peter Florance » Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:21 am

I hope no one else cuts up their ms board before checking the sensor grounds.
Peter Florance
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Check your grounds: http://www.msextra.com/doc/general/grounding.html
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Re: Low Z noise problems

Postby psucrash » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:23 pm

I know that this is an old post but I wanted to add my thanks to you Mr. Florance!
I have been having battery voltage spike issues for a long time and tried all kinds of things to remedy the situation.
Found this post and placed a 47uF cap as you described. PROBLEM SOLVED!!
The battV actually looks more noisy now but that's because it's scaled from 12.5 to 14 volts now. It used to autoscale from 7 to 19 ...
The car would misfire hard when I had the spikes under boost. Now it's a clean pull straight through :yeah!:
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Re: Low Z noise problems

Postby Peter Florance » Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:54 am

Great; glad it helped.
Also check the grounding per my above test. The systems are amazingly quiet if they can pass the sensor ground test.
Peter Florance
PF Tuning
81 BMW Euro 528i ESP Car
60-2 Wheel LS2 Coils, Low Z Inj
Check your grounds: http://www.msextra.com/doc/general/grounding.html
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Re: Low Z noise problems

Postby f3rdy » Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:05 am

I'm a little bit stumbled. For wiring of most components, like PWM idle valve, relays etc a diode is suggested for protection the mosfets or transistors driving it. However when using mosfets or transistors that are avalanche protected these diode will be less necessary to protect the driver (e.g. irf 540N). But without diodes nasty voltage spike can occur. Why don’t we use diodes in the injector wiring harness? :RTFM:
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Re: Low Z noise problems

Postby Peter Florance » Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:32 am

f3rdy wrote:I'm a little bit stumbled. For wiring of most components, like PWM idle valve, relays etc a diode is suggested for protection the mosfets or transistors driving it. However when using mosfets or transistors that are avalanche protected these diode will be less necessary to protect the driver (e.g. irf 540N). But without diodes nasty voltage spike can occur. Why don’t we use diodes in the injector wiring harness? :RTFM:

With injector drive, you need the clamped spike to close the injector quickly.
If you use a rectifier to recirculate the energy at turnoff, the closing time can increase more than 200%.
Peter Florance
PF Tuning
81 BMW Euro 528i ESP Car
60-2 Wheel LS2 Coils, Low Z Inj
Check your grounds: http://www.msextra.com/doc/general/grounding.html
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Re: Low Z noise problems

Postby SymTech Laboratories » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:13 am

f3rdy wrote:I'm a little bit stumbled. For wiring of most components, like PWM idle valve, relays etc a diode is suggested for protection the mosfets or transistors driving it. However when using mosfets or transistors that are avalanche protected these diode will be less necessary to protect the driver (e.g. irf 540N). But without diodes nasty voltage spike can occur. Why don’t we use diodes in the injector wiring harness? :RTFM:

To add to what Peter said, the higher the voltage the back EMF is allowed to reach, the more quickly the injectors will close. The active flyback clamp circuit on the v3.0/v3.57 board clamps the voltage to 36V, whereas a 1N400x diode would clamp the voltage to ~14V.
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Re: Low Z noise problems

Postby JW3vze4RnR » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:07 am

i am also having this issue. before i opened up my ms again i wanted to be clear on what works and what is speculation..

before i even bother, i am running one 1.3 ohm injector in a tbi do i need to run it with pwm
i havent been but my ve table is kind of stretched out from 30 to 212

still not clear on were to attach the "closer to the db37" source for 12v.
is that the incoming 12v supply for ms or another line i need to run to a different pin on the db37

im not perfectly clear on the voltages on these capacitors or if it is matters whether its 35v or 50v

here is what i have come up with by reading this and various other threads,
i did not add cutting the trace or rewiring the transistor leads as i wasnt going to attempt this yet

Image

photo was borrowed from a mustang forum
91 4runner 3vz-22r swap, gm 2.5 tbi, edis 4, ms2 3.0
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Re: Low Z noise problems

Postby Peter Florance » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:14 am

JW3vze4RnR wrote:i am also having this issue. before i opened up my ms again i wanted to be clear on what works and what is speculation..

before i even bother, i am running one 1.3 ohm injector in a tbi do i need to run it with pwm
i havent been but my ve table is kind of stretched out from 30 to 212

still not clear on were to attach the "closer to the db37" source for 12v.
is that the incoming 12v supply for ms or another line i need to run to a different pin on the db37

im not perfectly clear on the voltages on these capacitors or if it is matters whether its 35v or 50v

here is what i have come up with by reading this and various other threads,
i did not add cutting the trace or rewiring the transistor leads as i wasnt going to attempt this yet

Image

photo was borrowed from a mustang forum

Before I did any of that, I would verify that your harness meets the newest MSExtra grounding scheme. Your setup should pass this test:
The test is, if you unplug MS box and measure resistance from any sensor's (MAT, CLT, TPS) ground to car/engine ground , you should not have continuity.


If it does pass above, you may find you can run PWM without any other mods.
Peter Florance
PF Tuning
81 BMW Euro 528i ESP Car
60-2 Wheel LS2 Coils, Low Z Inj
Check your grounds: http://www.msextra.com/doc/general/grounding.html
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Re: Low Z noise problems

Postby JW3vze4RnR » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:53 am

peter i have taken the sensor ground test and everything shows no continuity to ground when unplugged from ms..
furthermore i can run non pwm injection without noise or voltage spikes.

when switched to pwm injection using all the same hardware i get voltage spikes ranging from 9-17 volts causing my usb adapter and lc1 to shut down.

this is why i was looking to dampen the injection circuit and am looking for clarification that my above posted image is correct at least for the non invasive portions of pwm troubleshooting
91 4runner 3vz-22r swap, gm 2.5 tbi, edis 4, ms2 3.0
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Re: Low Z noise problems

Postby Peter Florance » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:09 am

JW3vze4RnR wrote:peter i have taken the sensor ground test and everything shows no continuity to ground when unplugged from ms..
furthermore i can run non pwm injection without noise or voltage spikes.

when switched to pwm injection using all the same hardware i get voltage spikes ranging from 9-17 volts causing my usb adapter and lc1 to shut down.

this is why i was looking to dampen the injection circuit and am looking for clarification that my above posted image is correct at least for the non invasive portions of pwm troubleshooting

Good
you'll need fairly good sized wire for ground wires from MS to ground. I would use 6 ground wires minimum (most harnesses are coming with #20 gauge wire. I'll run all of them together and crimp them into one yellow ring terminal
For the capacitor, I normally will tack a 330uf 25 volt from collector of TIP125 (positive lead of capacitor) to collector of TIP42C. Then bend it towards heatsink and fasten down with hot glue. Should take care of your problem.
I run 6 low z injectors. I do have the capacitor added but nothing else.

One other thought; if your PWM is not working correctly (not recirculating current during the PWM time) you can generate a huge amount of noise.
Peter Florance
PF Tuning
81 BMW Euro 528i ESP Car
60-2 Wheel LS2 Coils, Low Z Inj
Check your grounds: http://www.msextra.com/doc/general/grounding.html
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Re: Low Z noise problems

Postby moparmaniac » Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:53 am

Peter Florance wrote:I've been dyno tuning a TR8 this week (8 low z injectors)
The injector noise has been very low.

47uf 50v cap from center leg of TIP42C to TIP125
That's all I ever do for low Z injectors. I do a lot of jobs with 6 injectors. First V8.

I do above and provide plenty of ground wires.


Recently been having a noise issue so bumping this back up.

Do you not also run the same .47uF 50V capacitor from Q11 to Q12 (center leg to center leg) or is just one bank enough to cover the noise...?

Thanks,
-Colin
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Re: Low Z noise problems

Postby Peter Florance » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:03 am

moparmaniac wrote:
Peter Florance wrote:I've been dyno tuning a TR8 this week (8 low z injectors)
The injector noise has been very low.

47uf 50v cap from center leg of TIP42C to TIP125
That's all I ever do for low Z injectors. I do a lot of jobs with 6 injectors. First V8.

I do above and provide plenty of ground wires.


Recently been having a noise issue so bumping this back up.

Do you not also run the same .47uF 50V capacitor from Q11 to Q12 (center leg to center leg) or is just one bank enough to cover the noise...?

Thanks,
-Colin

Just one bank is enough.
Peter Florance
PF Tuning
81 BMW Euro 528i ESP Car
60-2 Wheel LS2 Coils, Low Z Inj
Check your grounds: http://www.msextra.com/doc/general/grounding.html
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Re: Low Z noise problems

Postby moparmaniac » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:31 pm

So I've added a non-polarized .47uF 50V capacitor as you described and am still seeing noise on my tachometer when testing the injector outputs.

I guess I could try a larger capacitor...? Or does the capacitor need to be polarized?
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Re: Low Z noise problems

Postby moparmaniac » Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:21 pm

moparmaniac wrote:So I've added a non-polarized .47uF 50V capacitor as you described and am still seeing noise on my tachometer when testing the injector outputs.

I guess I could try a larger capacitor...? Or does the capacitor need to be polarized?


I bought a 47uF (not .47uF) 50V capacitor (polarized this time) and soldered that in as described by Peter.

WORKS AWESOME! That was literally all I did. No lifting traces or anything.

I have absolutely NO noise. My LC-1 is happy (AFR rock solid), all sensor inputs are happy (much more crisp IAT/TPS/etc.), and no more battery voltage sags/spikes. For reference I'm powering 6 low-z injectors on a Mopar 440 v8.

THANK YOU PETER!!!
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Re: Low Z noise problems

Postby neverlift19 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:41 am

v3.57 board


"47uf 50v cap from center leg of TIP42C to TIP125"


on my board I have tip126 and a quick google search shows them to be in the same family, just slightly different ratings. Am I justified to say its safe to do the modification?
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