Sync loss during warmup with SW0205

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snowrx
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Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:51 am
Location: North Idaho

Re: Sync loss during warmup with SW0205

Post by snowrx »

Here's files, starting from 27 F, might not be representative as the car started after just a few tries.
"Cold" files are as I first cranked, others are at a cold idle
Attachments
2017-12-22_12.30.01ColdComp.csv
(473.4 KiB) Downloaded 27 times
2017-12-22_12.29.15ColdTooth.csv
(30.73 KiB) Downloaded 26 times
2017-12-22_12.31.17Comp.csv
(42.54 KiB) Downloaded 27 times
Lotus Esprit w/MS3x, COP, Sequential, GM TB&IAC. Hall sensor on 36-2 crank,1 pin VR cam. MapDaddy, AEM X WBO2, Clock&Knock boards.

Subaru WRX hybrid w/MS3PNPPro SW0205, STi cams, VF39 turbo, 830cc injectors, VW boost solenoid.
MS3 1.5.1
TS v3.0.28
snowrx
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:51 am
Location: North Idaho

Re: Sync loss during warmup with SW0205

Post by snowrx »

Rest of files. TunerStudio recorded 32 seperate tiny .msl files while I idled a bit. Started a new.msl with every synch loss, you could string them together and view as a whole. I assume this is because I am triggering the SD with RPM>300, and synch loss = no RPM,

Looks like I am still set on Wasted COP from earlier cam diagnosis.
Attachments
2017-12-22_12.31.47Tooth.csv
(15.5 KiB) Downloaded 26 times
SW0205Tune .msq
(279.47 KiB) Downloaded 29 times
Lotus Esprit w/MS3x, COP, Sequential, GM TB&IAC. Hall sensor on 36-2 crank,1 pin VR cam. MapDaddy, AEM X WBO2, Clock&Knock boards.

Subaru WRX hybrid w/MS3PNPPro SW0205, STi cams, VF39 turbo, 830cc injectors, VW boost solenoid.
MS3 1.5.1
TS v3.0.28
snowrx
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:51 am
Location: North Idaho

Re: Sync loss during warmup with SW0205

Post by snowrx »

Snugged up pin sockets on both cam and crank sensors, then tried one cold start each with a hot air pre-heat of cam then crank sensors. No joy.
Won't have new sensors to test for a bit, not sure what else could be temperature (or time?) sensitive to give me the synch loss on the 32-2-2-2 code.

Datalog is a 29 F start with preheated crank sensor, a couple of start attempts, then cold idle with synch losses until time= 34 seconds, then all is well.
Attachments
2017-12-26_ColdStart_modified.msl
(541.15 KiB) Downloaded 28 times
Lotus Esprit w/MS3x, COP, Sequential, GM TB&IAC. Hall sensor on 36-2 crank,1 pin VR cam. MapDaddy, AEM X WBO2, Clock&Knock boards.

Subaru WRX hybrid w/MS3PNPPro SW0205, STi cams, VF39 turbo, 830cc injectors, VW boost solenoid.
MS3 1.5.1
TS v3.0.28
snowrx
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:51 am
Location: North Idaho

Re: Sync loss during warmup with SW0205

Post by snowrx »

Replaced cam sensor and did a couple cold starts, looks like it helped, now getting synch loss only with initial cranking (or when I stall it engaging clutch on cold tranny)
Hopefully this will now start with two tries rather than 6 or 8 or 10, and quit the stalling. Not sure why the sensor could fail cold, but warm to working temperature in 30 seconds, as it's sensing the back of the cam pulley in air. Perhaps a vibration component as well? Time will tell.

Crank sensor came in today, I'll try that next. It's in the crank oil and I would expect it to warm up faster than the cam sensor.
Attachments
2018-01-03_ColdStartEdit.msl
(315.36 KiB) Downloaded 20 times
2018-01-02_13_clip.msl
(226.37 KiB) Downloaded 24 times
Lotus Esprit w/MS3x, COP, Sequential, GM TB&IAC. Hall sensor on 36-2 crank,1 pin VR cam. MapDaddy, AEM X WBO2, Clock&Knock boards.

Subaru WRX hybrid w/MS3PNPPro SW0205, STi cams, VF39 turbo, 830cc injectors, VW boost solenoid.
MS3 1.5.1
TS v3.0.28
Matt Cramer
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 17499
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:08 pm

Re: Sync loss during warmup with SW0205

Post by Matt Cramer »

It wouldn't be the first time I've seen a sensor have a temperature dependent failure with VR sensors. I'm not sure if it is due to thermal effects on the magnet or some sort of expansion / contraction changing the air gap just enough to make trouble.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
snowrx
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Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:51 am
Location: North Idaho

Re: Sync loss during warmup with SW0205

Post by snowrx »

Hoping that the cam sensor took care of the issue- still a drop or two while cranking, but not the continuing missing and stalls I had before. Coincidental that it expressed with the swap to the SW0205?

Just cause there are a trillion settings combinations for cold start, don't assume it's a software settings issue until you check the hardware. :roll:

Now on to why my first crank never registers a good AFR on the preheated O2 sensor.....
Attachments
2018-01-05_12_ColdStart.msl
(404.17 KiB) Downloaded 22 times
Lotus Esprit w/MS3x, COP, Sequential, GM TB&IAC. Hall sensor on 36-2 crank,1 pin VR cam. MapDaddy, AEM X WBO2, Clock&Knock boards.

Subaru WRX hybrid w/MS3PNPPro SW0205, STi cams, VF39 turbo, 830cc injectors, VW boost solenoid.
MS3 1.5.1
TS v3.0.28
Matt Cramer
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 17499
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:08 pm

Re: Sync loss during warmup with SW0205

Post by Matt Cramer »

snowrx wrote:Hoping that the cam sensor took care of the issue- still a drop or two while cranking, but not the continuing missing and stalls I had before. Coincidental that it expressed with the swap to the SW0205?
We don't have quite the same opportunity OEMs have for putting in testing our ECUs with worn, marginal, or partially failed sensors. So the stock Subaru ECU may have had some sort of hardware or software features to compensate for a sensor that was beginning to fail that our system didn't.

Just cause there are a trillion settings combinations for cold start, don't assume it's a software settings issue until you check the hardware. :roll:
Now on to why my first crank never registers a good AFR on the preheated O2 sensor.....
The tune has a 40 second delay after start for applying the AFR readings. It is also possible that the supply voltage to the sensor drops far enough to make the controller reset while cranking; many wideband controllers also have a built in delay before they start sending a signal.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
snowrx
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:51 am
Location: North Idaho

Re: Sync loss during warmup with SW0205

Post by snowrx »

Thanks again Matt, I'll look at those O2 thoughts
Lotus Esprit w/MS3x, COP, Sequential, GM TB&IAC. Hall sensor on 36-2 crank,1 pin VR cam. MapDaddy, AEM X WBO2, Clock&Knock boards.

Subaru WRX hybrid w/MS3PNPPro SW0205, STi cams, VF39 turbo, 830cc injectors, VW boost solenoid.
MS3 1.5.1
TS v3.0.28
snowrx
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:51 am
Location: North Idaho

Re: Sync loss during warmup with SW0205

Post by snowrx »

It's Baaack! Well, the cold temperatures are, so I'm getting the initial cold start weirdness again. Cyclic synch loss at initial cold (0-20 degrees F) start, with the engine at fast idle but the ECU is losing synch and showing RPM going to zero rpm briefly, then picking up rpm signal and heading for fast idle over and over. The colder it is the worse it is. Now that my cold fuel numbers are getting close, the engine has no problem coasting through the synch loss at fast idle, but you can hear the engine missing and RPM surging. As the SW0205 is seeing low rpm with the losses, the PW jumps to cold cranking numbers with each cycle and it's fighting all the fuel, and if the O2 comes on line it's showing lean I assume from rich misfires. After 15 to 30 seconds the losses go away and everything is fine for subsequent warm starts. We're talking around -10C to 0C for CLT and maybe -12 to -5C MAT for these starts. The issue goes away long before either temperature starts to rise in the datalogs. I'm no longer getting the odd discrete rpm levels though, as soon as the synch comes back I have good rpm numbers. I replaced Cam and Crank sensors with new ones, and tightened the connector contacts.
I notice that the next_spark.tooth values change, going from 2,17,32,47 to 3,17,32,47 and occasionally skipping the second value without synch loss, or swapping a 33 for the 32. If I get a loss, it when to code does not see the transition from 2 to 17. I don’t know what those numbers represent, just was looking at them to try to see if it was cam or crank wheel related. Wiring is the OEM harness from sensor to PnP ECU.

Perusing older MS/Subaru threads I see that some have added resistors to their VR sensors to adjust the signal, but that appears to be to avert a high speed synch loss, don’t know if that still applies to newer hardware? Then again users of some other ECU’s are shimming the sensor 1/16” farther away from the cam wheel to get an signal level that they can read. Can’t find any mention of very cold temp sensitivity anywhere. Not sure how many cold nights I'll have left this year to puzzle this out - any ideas out there?
Attachments
2107-07-31_07.56.02_LOG1017.msl
(433.56 KiB) Downloaded 23 times
SW0205cold.msq
Well, this one is switched over to wasted COP and Semi sequential but otherwise as run with the datalog.
(293 KiB) Downloaded 21 times
Lotus Esprit w/MS3x, COP, Sequential, GM TB&IAC. Hall sensor on 36-2 crank,1 pin VR cam. MapDaddy, AEM X WBO2, Clock&Knock boards.

Subaru WRX hybrid w/MS3PNPPro SW0205, STi cams, VF39 turbo, 830cc injectors, VW boost solenoid.
MS3 1.5.1
TS v3.0.28
Matt Cramer
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Posts: 17499
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:08 pm

Re: Sync loss during warmup with SW0205

Post by Matt Cramer »

The moving next spark tooth is just a result of the timing moving - the code continuously changes what tooth to start the hardware timer on depending on the amount of commanded spark advance.

Can you get a tooth log and composite log of what it's doing at this point?
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
snowrx
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Posts: 90
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Re: Sync loss during warmup with SW0205

Post by snowrx »

I can try, but usually by the time it occurs to me to get the logger open, it's quit doing it! I'm going to try this AM w/wasted COP and Semi seq again to see if goes away.
Lotus Esprit w/MS3x, COP, Sequential, GM TB&IAC. Hall sensor on 36-2 crank,1 pin VR cam. MapDaddy, AEM X WBO2, Clock&Knock boards.

Subaru WRX hybrid w/MS3PNPPro SW0205, STi cams, VF39 turbo, 830cc injectors, VW boost solenoid.
MS3 1.5.1
TS v3.0.28
snowrx
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:51 am
Location: North Idaho

Re: Sync loss during warmup with SW0205

Post by snowrx »

Ok, it's a balmy 17*F, so not much time to capture logs before it quit, but here's what I got. The first tooth log is repeated start attempts without getting to idle, so not so great, by the time I tried the second tooth log I was out of the "cold" window and all was fine.
First log was wasted/semi then I changed back to COP/Fully seq as not incorporating the Cam did not seem to help.

My starter hates me....
Attachments
2019-03-05_09.30.49comp.csv
(316.07 KiB) Downloaded 23 times
2019-03-05_09.28.21tooth.csv
(338.79 KiB) Downloaded 22 times
2019-03-05_09.34.58toothseq.csv
(62.23 KiB) Downloaded 19 times
Lotus Esprit w/MS3x, COP, Sequential, GM TB&IAC. Hall sensor on 36-2 crank,1 pin VR cam. MapDaddy, AEM X WBO2, Clock&Knock boards.

Subaru WRX hybrid w/MS3PNPPro SW0205, STi cams, VF39 turbo, 830cc injectors, VW boost solenoid.
MS3 1.5.1
TS v3.0.28
snowrx
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:51 am
Location: North Idaho

Re: Sync loss during warmup with SW0205

Post by snowrx »

I have to assume this is a physical manifestation of something other than the MS. I don't know if I should be looking at the crank or cam sensor at this point. The crank sensor is mounted directly in the crankcase very close to the small diameter trigger wheel, so I find it hard to believe there's a dimensional difference to the air gap with such small temperature differentials between losses and no losses. Not sure which would warm up faster, the cam pulley from belt friction inside the timing cover, or the relatively massive crankcase from the oil starting to move around. I'm not wild about hogging out the crankcase hole to add a Hall sensor, I would prefer to make the OEM sensor work.

The cam sensor bolts right to the cylinder head, so not much metal to expand between it and the cam pulley, unless I'm getting cam end float at cold temperatures only!
Maybe I should be looking at ECU temperature, how fast can it warm up?
Lotus Esprit w/MS3x, COP, Sequential, GM TB&IAC. Hall sensor on 36-2 crank,1 pin VR cam. MapDaddy, AEM X WBO2, Clock&Knock boards.

Subaru WRX hybrid w/MS3PNPPro SW0205, STi cams, VF39 turbo, 830cc injectors, VW boost solenoid.
MS3 1.5.1
TS v3.0.28
Matt Cramer
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 17499
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:08 pm

Re: Sync loss during warmup with SW0205

Post by Matt Cramer »

I'm seeing it lose a tooth on the cam. There isn't any noise filtering currently active on the cam trigger - is there any way to get a tighter sensor gap?

Crank signal looks OK.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
snowrx
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:51 am
Location: North Idaho

Re: Sync loss during warmup with SW0205

Post by snowrx »

Thanks for isolating it to the one signal, that gives me a path. I'll mill down the flange on one of my (three) cam sensors and see what that does.

Should I be looking for some sort of filtering setting for the cam input?
Lotus Esprit w/MS3x, COP, Sequential, GM TB&IAC. Hall sensor on 36-2 crank,1 pin VR cam. MapDaddy, AEM X WBO2, Clock&Knock boards.

Subaru WRX hybrid w/MS3PNPPro SW0205, STi cams, VF39 turbo, 830cc injectors, VW boost solenoid.
MS3 1.5.1
TS v3.0.28
Matt Cramer
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 17499
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:08 pm

Re: Sync loss during warmup with SW0205

Post by Matt Cramer »

The filters are all off, which is what I recommend when there's a possibility they could be filtering out real signals.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
snowrx
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:51 am
Location: North Idaho

Re: Sync loss during warmup with SW0205

Post by snowrx »

I shaved a cam sensor down to almost touching the pulley, and the synch loss was persistent enough not to start readily, although it would of had I persisted. I then added a ~.030" shim under a standard sensor to open up the gap to wider than OEM, and still got the same issue, even at CLT of 4.6C. 10-15 seconds of Synch losses, then just fine. Does not seem to be the air gap. So weird, maybe I should put the engine in a convertible so I don't need cold starts....
Attachments
2019-03-06_17.18.10_LOG1024smallgap.msl
(722.11 KiB) Downloaded 21 times
2019-03-06_17.33.40_LOG1025largegap.msl
(1.14 MiB) Downloaded 18 times
Lotus Esprit w/MS3x, COP, Sequential, GM TB&IAC. Hall sensor on 36-2 crank,1 pin VR cam. MapDaddy, AEM X WBO2, Clock&Knock boards.

Subaru WRX hybrid w/MS3PNPPro SW0205, STi cams, VF39 turbo, 830cc injectors, VW boost solenoid.
MS3 1.5.1
TS v3.0.28
1990bbf
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:49 am

Re: Sync loss during warmup with SW0205

Post by 1990bbf »

I am having a very similar issue did you ever figure this out?
1990 mustang 466ci procharged with a tko600 om ms3x
2004 fxt eg33 swap 6speed center diff control, lifted on 28’’ tires on a micro
1966 bel air 5.3L ls with 76mm and 4l80e
1968 impala 6.0 ls NA with th400 ( build it for my Dad)
Next project is a 1967 mustang 7.3 swap
snowrx
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:51 am
Location: North Idaho

Re: Sync loss during warmup with SW0205

Post by snowrx »

No, it just became less of an issue as other settings got closer to optimal. Car just acts very cold blooded and I wait it out after a restart. Rust has caught up with the old girl after 20years and I think it's time to start on the new equivalent, a GR Corrolla.
Lotus Esprit w/MS3x, COP, Sequential, GM TB&IAC. Hall sensor on 36-2 crank,1 pin VR cam. MapDaddy, AEM X WBO2, Clock&Knock boards.

Subaru WRX hybrid w/MS3PNPPro SW0205, STi cams, VF39 turbo, 830cc injectors, VW boost solenoid.
MS3 1.5.1
TS v3.0.28
1990bbf
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:49 am

Re: Sync loss during warmup with SW0205

Post by 1990bbf »

Oh man that stinks. But a new project is always nice. Thanks for the reply and good luck. If i happen to figure anything out ill send the info your way.
1990 mustang 466ci procharged with a tko600 om ms3x
2004 fxt eg33 swap 6speed center diff control, lifted on 28’’ tires on a micro
1966 bel air 5.3L ls with 76mm and 4l80e
1968 impala 6.0 ls NA with th400 ( build it for my Dad)
Next project is a 1967 mustang 7.3 swap
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