Setting up an initial ignition timing table

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AFR table generator perhaps?

Postby arny528 » Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:36 am

I believe it wouldn't be hard to do, it might use a slightly modified VE generator because it would be based on max torque and max power areas and calculate the rest in a similar fashion. Probably some stuff should be entered, like desired AFR's in idle and cruise areas.

Or maybe it could be derived from an existing VE table? Is the VE formula close enough to derive AFR's, or it should be derived by another interpolation method?
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Postby Leistung Elektronik » Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:23 am

lance wrote:
Finally, for boosted engines, you subtract 0.3° of advance for every kPa above 100 (it's not a coincidence that this is the same factor as for the 'vacuum' adjustments). Because 101.3kPa=~14.7psi, this works out to ~2° per pound of boost. It is often the case that you want to limit the retard under boost as well, typically so that it takes out no more than about ½ of the maximum advance at 100 kPa.

Lance.


Hi Lance,
I don´t understand because you substract to much advance degrees when the engine ist under boost. We run a 1.6 L Fiat engine under 30 PSI of boost with 22° final and no detonation. What ist wrong?? Have you considered any CR (9:1 ; 10:1 ; etc) ?
I apreciate your help, because i´m trying to find a simple metod for make a start advance table for boosted engines.

Thanks
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IAT and timing

Postby preston » Fri Oct 28, 2005 7:40 am

It doesn't appear that MSII can alter timing based on IAT. Isn't this pretty common on the normal aftermarket EFI setups ?

Is anyone working on adding this ? (why or why not ?)

I've heard rule of thumb there is -1 degree per every 10 degrees above 120.
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Postby mad max » Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:23 am

Leistung Elektronik wrote:
lance wrote:
Finally, for boosted engines, you subtract 0.3° of advance for every kPa above 100 (it's not a coincidence that this is the same factor as for the 'vacuum' adjustments). Because 101.3kPa=~14.7psi, this works out to ~2° per pound of boost. It is often the case that you want to limit the retard under boost as well, typically so that it takes out no more than about ½ of the maximum advance at 100 kPa.

Lance.


Hi Lance,
I don´t understand because you substract to much advance degrees when the engine ist under boost. We run a 1.6 L Fiat engine under 30 PSI of boost with 22° final and no detonation. What ist wrong?? Have you considered any CR (9:1 ; 10:1 ; etc) ?
I apreciate your help, because i´m trying to find a simple metod for make a start advance table for boosted engines.

Thanks

read this:

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Postby Leistung Elektronik » Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:51 am

Thanks, i have read it! But it have no information about CR, timing...just a few words about peak pressure and others.
Have you any information about a site with more specific information.
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Postby burgo90 » Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:15 pm

does anyone know anywhere on the net i can get excel??
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Postby TT350chevelle » Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:57 pm

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Postby burgo90 » Sun Nov 06, 2005 10:16 pm

yes i downloaded that but its only a viewer so i cant put my own values in to create my own table
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Postby Kirk » Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:55 am

burgo90 wrote:yes i downloaded that but its only a viewer so i cant put my own values in to create my own table


Try www.OpenOffice.org. OpenOffice is a free office suite that appears to handle this MS Office spreadsheet.
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Postby burgo90 » Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:23 am

thats awesome thank you very much kirk
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Postby burgo90 » Mon Nov 07, 2005 6:09 am

right after having a play and a read from what i understand below 100kpa has to be more accurate than above. if this is correct then i beleave i am correct in thinking that i should have 6 or 7 kpa points below 100kpa on my spark map??
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Re: Hot Rod Lincoln

Postby MiseryQ » Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:25 am

Ferret wrote:Is this formula good for all Megasquirt versions (MSnS, EDIS, Extra...) or just for some of them?
When I paste the results in a MS2 vex it's actual.
Am I doing something wrong or are these for MSNS-E only?
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Postby QldRobbo » Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:27 am

I must be missing something....

I'm assuming that 20kpa at 800rpm would be able idle, using the formulas above I get 31 degrees of advance at idle.... shouldn't this be more like 10 degrees?
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Postby blk 02 » Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:14 am

QldRobbo wrote:I must be missing something....

I'm assuming that 20kpa at 800rpm would be able idle, using the formulas above I get 31 degrees of advance at idle.... shouldn't this be more like 10 degrees?


I was wondering the same thing.... Maybe I missed something

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Postby jsmcortina » Tue Dec 06, 2005 1:07 pm

QldRobbo wrote:I must be missing something....

I'm assuming that 20kpa at 800rpm would be able idle, using the formulas above I get 31 degrees of advance at idle.... shouldn't this be more like 10 degrees?

Try more like 60-80kpa at idle.
The formulas are intended as a good starting point and will never be perfect.
Use whatever advance works on your engine, like you say 10-15 deg is more reasonable for idle.

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Postby edmcguirk » Tue Dec 06, 2005 3:13 pm

It seems to me that after you take into account CR, squish, chamber design, etc. the next items affecting advance are VE and turbulence.

It looks like below 3000 RPM the advance would be dictated by the number of milliseconds it takes to build maximum cylinder pressure from the ignition point to optimum peak cylinder pressure which is supposed to be about 15-20 degrees ATDC. That would give your ignition curve a slope downward from the advance at 3000 to the advance at idle.

Your advance is also affected by cylinder pressure so that you are adding "0.3° per 1 kPa drop". I would assume that if your VE is lower, you could use more advance right? Does VE have enough effect to be worth adding to the advance calculation?


On the other hand, above 3000 RPM your advance does not appear to be related to milliseconds to peak cylinder pressure, it appears to be a constant angular advance. I assume that is somehow the result from turbulence in the combustion chamber. Would VE have any effect above 3000 RPM? Like should advance start to rise again as VE falls off?


I like to have my calculations based on physics but I can't seem to understand the underlying rules of ignition advance.

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Postby Uncle Bob » Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:47 am

just to add a little data for others, motorcycles seem to run more timing than cars.

In general, a 2 valve per cylinder air cooled engine is usually happiest between 40-45 total timing.

water cooled 4 valve engines are usually between 35-40 total timing.

retarding timing with boost, I'd personally say 2* per psi is an awfully large amount of timing reduction. Assuming you're running 30 total timing, that means you'd max out your timing by 7 psi (15* timing)....if you still had another 13 psi to go, that would be interesting :P

Lot of variables in ignition timing, I realise these are just attempts at getting SOMETHING to work with....
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Postby fastereddie1011 » Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:51 pm

I threw a timing light on my stock efi chevy truck and it idles at 20 deg btdc. If you rev it up slowly, the timing steadily climbs from 20 up to 36 deg btdc at about 3000-3500 rpm. But if you stab it from an idle it drops from 20 to 5 and then back up to whatever rpm your at so im going to try a map similar and see how it runs.
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Postby SSDD » Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:21 am

Hi all can someone tell me what the equivalent of your US:

- regular - subtract 2°
- mid-grade - subtract 1°
- premium - no adjustment

is in Europe, we have here:

Unleaded 98
Unleaded 95
super

the super is lead replacement fuel that is basically unleaded with some sodium additive for older cars that cant use unleaded

Thanks
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