MS3 pre-1.6 alpha 3 firmware

[Six_Shooter]

This is in relation to the 1.6 firmware real life testing and reporting issues, not a future feature request not to mention that this beta firmware is already under MS3 Development. My understanding here is to report issues with the use of this firmware.

Right? This is an issue. Not an issue with a non-PWM fan, easy to address, but this firmware introduces using a PWM Variable fan the right way, so it should be the right way.

The problem with going AC ON/FAN ON is that you are choosing your AC to be your primary interest, the primary driver of your cooling system, which it shouldn’t be.

I want my engine to run in the optimal temp range and therefore, my fan should turn on only when the AC finds it absolutely necessary(over pressure), not always or it could potentially make my engine run cooler than ideal. (OR if my engine tells it to via the coolant levels I set).

Engine first, THEN AC.

The fan gets turned on when the AC is triggered to force/draw air through the condenser. It's condenser cooling first, engine cooling second. This is normal behaviour, and how it should be IMO.

[39ClevoUte]

Thermostat keeps the engine at temp(ie reducing flow if the fan for AC is bringing water temp down) nothing wrong with this..
If your cooling system is excellent: the job of the thermostat is to keep the engine a constant temp (or as tuned temp) and not let it get to cold or to hot. Its first job of the day is to bring up to temp.
Nothing wrong with engine fan control via relay switching fan to full if needed (across the output of a PWM controller). In my experience this does not hurt PWM cct controllers.

[ShirtUser]

If the MS3's built in fan controlling function doesn't have the parameters you want, you can always use the custom loops to build any combination of conditions that you want. That's what I did.

[ashford]

a trinary switch is for systems that have an on/off style single fan or for a two speed or dual fan system to turn on high. it looks like that delta pag fan system was made as a drop in for older cars with vintage aire style ac conversions without modifying/adding to the system. a proper use of that system would put the fan on low speed with ac on and high with pressure above 250. better yet would be a pressure transducer in the high side. the more btus the condenser gets rid of the less strain there is on the compressor and the more efficient the system is.

the only complaint i have with the new fan controls is not being able to specify fan speed for ac on.

if having the fan on makes you engine run too cold the same will happen with road speed.

[ba123]

Thanks for all the opinions, I appreciate it.

I'll set it up this way and then if I'm not happy I'll check out the custom loops.

Thanks!

[kikkegek]

hi james, I downloaded and isntalled this firmware because I wanted to use the PWM fan control. thanks for adding that feature.

What I expected was:
1. coolant reaches ON setpoint --> fan soft starts from MIN PWM setpoint to MAX PWM setpoint (sort of ramp up from MIN to MAX PWM in 1 or 3 seconds)
2. as the coolant cools down, the fan goes from MAX PWM slowly to MIN PWM setpoint.
3. below coolant OFF setpoint --> fan turns off

How it now works in my setup ( I couldnt find a descrition):
1. coolant reaches ON setpoint --> fan starts at MIN PWM setpoint. 40% in my case
2. as coolant temp rises to the MAX coolant setpoint --> fan speed rises linear to MAX PWM setpoint
This results in my case in a balanced situation, where the fan turns on at 40% at 90C.
My max temp is set to 95C. So as coolant gets hotter, the fan speed rises.
But it will not cool down below 90C, unless I start driving.

So I could raise the MIN PWM setting, but if my fans are able to cool down my car from the ON setpoint to the OFF Setpoint using the MIN PWM signal, then whats the use of PWM fan control?
So I'm curious what the design idea is behind the current setup you encoded.

[kikkegek]

another question.
Why is the PWM option limited to 250Hz?

I read that some fan controllers, like the Autocool, use up to 7 kHz.
And computer fan controllers use even higher like 20-30 kHz

[reginatobr]

Is It possible change the seconds variable (programmable on/off outputs - Active conditions) resolution to less than 1 second (<1). For exemplo 0.3s
Some aplications need more resolutions.

[jsmcortina]

another question.
Why is the PWM option limited to 250Hz?

The ECU is using software PWM for this so that many outputs can be used. That limits it to 250Hz.
Hardware PWM is only available on a select few outputs and the frequency is required to be shared with the other outputs.

James

[mtnickel]

Thanks for looking into it, i've got two logs here showing the spool behaviour of the 1.5.2 release firmware and the current pre-1.6 alpha 3 firmware. Maybe this behaviour is caused by setting the boost target way high up in the TPS range, because of this the boost target only kicks in once the MAP value is near or over 100Kpa. It seems like this doesn't work that nicely together with the newly added feature, making it optional would be wonderful. Please note that MegaLogViewer automatically adjusts the scales of the graphs so they can't be compared directly regarding Y-axis values.

It's only a small TD04 turbo on a relative large 2.3L engine so i like to run the turbo at it's wastegate pressure (which is ~160Kpa) at lower TPS values, the boost control more or less acts like a kick-down for faster spool and higher boost pressures. This gives great driveability with my setup, having quick spool when needed but not having a car that's reacting overly agressive to throttle input during normal driving.

We've figured out how this is happening:

• You give it a little throttle, which has a *very* low target (101kPa)
• You then give it more throttle, which has a high target
• With the low target, closed-loop boost activates, and in this case, duty would normally go to 100, but you're only there briefly and it doesn't show in the log
• With the old code, once you get on the throttle, it would go back into "boost builder" mode because boost is lower than target - delta. For you, this helped with your settings, but with James' drag-race setup, this was hurting and causing overboost.
• With the new code, the boost builder is a "one-shot" - so it won't reactivate unless you come out of boost, but with your settings with your initial target so low (which isn't unreasonable, we understand what you're doing) closed loop is activating almost as soon as you touch the throttle, and it's never going back into boost builder mode even after you hit the throttle and increase the target.

So we probably just need to make the old behavior vs. the new behavior configurable.

Ken

That sounds logical, once it's configurable i'll be switching back to the alpha firmware to test it out. While making these logs i was basically smashing the gas pedal as fast as i could, but it seems like even that wasn't fast enough to enable the boost builder with my settings. This Volvo has got a non-linear throttle linkage though, so the first ~25% of the TPS range is spread over the first ~75% of the gas pedal range which limits the speed at which i can open the throttle.

You might get the operation you want by utilizing the "use bias table only at part throttle".
A few revisions back we requested that many might want the boost to be very predictable at partial throttle; both for drivability and even when tracking as you want the onset of boost to be gentle if you were say feathering the throttle mid corner.

This should mean you only get the duty that's in the bias table unless you go above the WOT limit (which is in the engine state settings). Much like you mentioned the "step-down" feature, it should then give you only the boost builder when you floor it.

Note: I am unsure if the Lower-limit delta rule is utilized before or after this part throttle rule.
It may operate like:
-100% NO boost control till reaches lower-limit delta
- THEN once LLD is reached, it will check whether it's part throttle and decide whether to set to activate CL from the initial duty VS force to initial duty (if part throttle).

OR
it may operate checking the part throttle rule first:
- If part throttle, and in boost region (>100kpa where boost control/boost builder would usually activate), simply set boost duty to bias table.
else
- if full throttle, use the LLD rule (100% duty) and closed loop thereafter.

Given the part throttle check is for drivability, I'd hope/ask it takes precedence over the boost builder circuit.

[Marek]

Acceleration adjustments under dual fuel don't perform as per the tables using pre1.6a3 and the datalogged [Fuel: Accel enrich] doesn't match what is actually going on. It looks to be exactly the same as was in 1.5 and I reported that under the MS3 General subforum at viewtopic.php?t=78502

I'm also not a fan of the new deadtime tables. I am a dual fuel user and run a v12. That's 24 injectors, of two totally different types, which now can only be defined in one of four ways. The previous method was a lot more versatile and changing to this locks in future lack of functionality for anyone using more than one type of injector, as the whole point of allowing you to specify deadtimes is to tune out the variations, not lump all of them together so none of them are right. It more or less kicks anyone who might have a mix of low impedance injectors as a primary and high impedance as a secondary. Analytically, it was easy to make a MLV custom field for battery adjustment graphs 1-4 and use those to scale the old deadtimes when looking at graphs.

kind regards
Marek

[muythaibxr]

This is in relation to the 1.6 firmware real life testing and reporting issues, not a future feature request not to mention that this beta firmware is already under MS3 Development. My understanding here is to report issues with the use of this firmware.

Right? This is an issue. Not an issue with a non-PWM fan, easy to address, but this firmware introduces using a PWM Variable fan the right way, so it should be the right way.

The problem with going AC ON/FAN ON is that you are choosing your AC to be your primary interest, the primary driver of your cooling system, which it shouldn’t be.

I want my engine to run in the optimal temp range and therefore, my fan should turn on only when the AC finds it absolutely necessary(over pressure), not always or it could potentially make my engine run cooler than ideal. (OR if my engine tells it to via the coolant levels I set).

Engine first, THEN AC.

The fan gets turned on when the AC is triggered to force/draw air through the condenser. It's condenser cooling first, engine cooling second. This is normal behaviour, and how it should be IMO.

This is correct, and also how all the factory cars I have driven work.

[Boxman]

Does MAP prediction work only with positive TPSdot or also with negative (lifting)? I noticed some hard bogs after enabling prediction but only on lift.

[boostdgem]

Is there any further information on the KIA IMU that is compatible with the 1.6 firmware? models fitted/part # etc?

[Suprazz]

I just found out this new feature, which is awesome! (Closed-loop) If boost pressure goes above the target plus this many kPa, wastegate duty will drop to 0, and closed loop mode will be exited.

The boost cut on the MS3 is really hard and far from perfect. Having this feature in open loop too would be awesome! Like when you reach this kpa, boost duty will revert back to minimum value (or 0) so you can se this to a lower value than the real boost cut and this will prevent hitting the hard boost cut and breaking your transmission.

Thanks!

[muythaibxr]

Does MAP prediction work only with positive TPSdot or also with negative (lifting)? I noticed some hard bogs after enabling prediction but only on lift.

I believe it only runs on accel not decel. You can pull fuel on decel in a few other ways to help with bog, like with time-based accel (based on tps) for example.

[reginatobr]

The development stoped?

[jsmcortina]

There will be another test release coming out in the new year.

James

[sr4440]

Is there any further information on the KIA IMU that is compatible with the 1.6 firmware? models fitted/part # etc?

2011-2017 Hyundai Kia works great

kia.jpg (84.97 KiB) Viewed 2607 times

[ShirtUser]

Relatively minor issue. This is for a MS3Pro Ultimate.

Lines from the ini file for the 1.5.2 firmware:
mafflow = array, U16, 128, [64], "g/sec", {0.01 * (maf_range + 1)}, -8192, {-81 * (maf_range + 1)}, {585 * (maf_range + 1)}, 2
yAxis = {-81 * (maf_range + 1)}, {585 * (maf_range + 1)}, 11


Corresponding lines from the 1.6alpha3 firmware:
mafflow = array, U16, 128, [64], "g/sec", {0.01 * (maf_range + 1)}, -8192, {-81 * (maf_range + 1)}, {573 * (maf_range + 1)}, 2
yAxis = {-81 * (maf_range + 1)}, {573 * (maf_range + 1)}, 11


Note the change from a maximum of 585 to 573. I only noticed it because on my tune the last row of the MAF flow curve is 573.28. Just barely above the new maximum.

Is there any reason in particular for the change or is it ok to change the maximum in the ini file?




One other thing, any chance we can change the default maximum VSS sample interval to 500ms in the ini?

vss_samp_int = scalar, U16, 568, "ms", 0.05, 0, 10, 50, 2

to

vss_samp_int = scalar, U16, 568, "ms", 0.05, 0, 10, 500, 2

I don't mind changing it manually, but it might be useful to others to have the default raised.