4AGE 20V - Dizzy as CAS, RPM OK. NO SPARK.

[apexi3016]

Hi Guys,

I did post this in club 4ag too...

I'm from Malaysia running a 20V in a KE70.

I bought the MS2 kit in 2009, got it in the car and cranking only yesterday... took me that long..

Running MSExtra Rel 2.1.0p

I'm using the stock dizzy as the CAS on 1NZ COP's using 5V pullup to fire them.

In the screenshot attached is my settings.


Below is what i have for now:

1. when i turn the key on (power to MS). all three LED's light up. i'm not sure if this is normal. When i crank i can see the LED's flicker ever so slightly.

2. All COP's fire once, when the power is turned on to MS. Not good as it ignited the fuel in the cylinders and had a fireball thru the exhaust. I Verified this by removing each plug, grounding it and turning the key on, for all four plugs.

3. Removed all the plugs and cranked and on TS my max crank RPM is about 265. This should indicate that my 2nd VR conditioner is fine.

I do not understand how to set tooth #1 angle, its a bit confusing for me and below is what i did as per > http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2....html:

1. Set engine at TDC compression cyl #1.

2.Rotated the engine backwards until the single tooth aligns with cam sensor (being the one below the 24 tooth). I had to go more than 360" and in the instruction it says to add 360". Question is where do i get the degree value for tooth #1 angle from, do i use a degree wheel? for now i've just put 20 degrees. so i'm a bit lost at this point. Hope someone can point me in the correct direction. Hopefully this is why i'm not getting spark.

Hope you guys can point me in the right direction

[dontz125]

I'm not much on dizzies, but if you move (rewire) the +12v feed to your COPs from the main relay to the Fuel pump relay, this will solve your 'spark on power-up' problem. Basically, no power is fed to the COPs until the MS is ready to control them.

[rickb794]

I do not understand how to set tooth #1 angle, its a bit confusing for me and below is what i did as per > http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2....html:

1. Set engine at TDC compression cyl #1.

2.Rotated the engine backwards until the single tooth aligns with cam sensor (being the one below the 24 tooth). I had to go more than 360" and in the instruction it says to add 360". Question is where do i get the degree value for tooth #1 angle from, do i use a degree wheel? for now i've just put 20 degrees. so i'm a bit lost at this point. Hope someone can point me in the correct direction. Hopefully this is why i'm not getting spark.

Hope you guys can point me in the right direction

Per http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/MS2 ... utors.html

Yes you need a degree wheel 0-360 degrees

Your distributor is a 24 / 1 it has 2 sensors, 1 for the 24 (main) teeth, and 1 for the single (cam) tooth.

The tooth #1 angle is the number of crank degrees after tooth #1 that is the TDC #1 compression crank position.

How do I identify Tooth #1 ?
With the engine rotating in the normal direction...
Tooth #1 is the first tooth (of the 24) to pass the main sensor after the single tooth has passed the single toothed (cam) sensor.
So the tooth #1 ANGLE is the number of crank degrees tooth #1 is located before the TDC compression #1 cylinder position.

Follow these steps to find your tooth #1 angle -

First verify and or set distributor rotor phasing.
With your degree wheel pointer zeroed at the TDC #1 cylinder position move the crank backwards to 60° then forwards to 25° before TDC
This will take the slack out of the drive and this is where your rotor will be pointing at mid point in your spark advance curve 10 - 40°BTDC.
then adjust the distributor so the rotor is centered on the #1 spark tower and lock it down,
If the distributor has not been moved from factory or is not adjustable, Ignore the above.

Move the crank back to the TDC #1 cylinder position, make sure you are on the compression stroke.

Turn the motor backwards til the cam (single) tooth lines up with its sensor.

Note - remember, if you pass TDC to get to there (if you turn the crank more than 360° get there)

Then turn the motor forward til the first main tooth lines up with the main sensor (this is tooth #1) and read the # of degrees from TDC off the wheel.

Add 360° to that number if you are still past the 360° mark above at your Tooth #1 .

EXAMPLE:
if your tooth #1 was at 20° after TDC (you passed 360) your tooth angle would be 380°
if your tooth #1 was at 20° before TDC your angle wold be 340°(if you passed 360 this woud be 700°)

Does that make sense?
Leave the degree wheel on the motor
After you plug the your number into the Tooth angle,
Burn and power cycle the MS
and recheck your settings
Unplug the injectors so the motor will not start.
Crank the motor and
Use a timing light to check that your actual spark advance matches what is set in TS in the "cranking advance" box.
If not rotate distributor so they match. (You should not have to move it far)

Remove the degree wheel before starting motor unless it is very well secured.

[apexi3016]

Hi Dontz, will try that. Thanks

Hey Rick, Thanks a bunch for your detailed explanation. I'll do it and let you know the outcome.

Cheers

[knightrous]

Change the cam trigger from rising edge to falling edge.
The reason for this is the 20V dizzy, the 1 tooth wheel is shaped like a snail shell and when it set on rising edge, it triggers to early and you get a sync error. This will give you a tach signal but won't give you spark due to the lack of sync. I changed this setting on mine and it went from mis-firing and struggling to idle to firing up first go and purring like a kitten...

[apexi3016]

Hi guys,

This is what i did so far:

1. stripped out all the old wiring loom, separated everything, removed all unneeded wires and re-did it with braided sleeving. Not sure if it helps, but looks good.
2. Removed the Bosch coil drivers and using the 2N4033. I've got spark for all four COP's now without the spark when the key is turned. So thats sorted.
3. Got my #1 tooth angle which came to 12.5 degrees and 372 degrees. I did it for both G/cam sensors. I am unsure which is G1 and which is G2 on the dizzy but wired it to green wire on the dizzy. can someone please point it out?
4. Re-flashed to 3.2.1.

And below is what i get when cranking:

1. When cranking and checking for the cranking advance the timing seems to be jumping/wondering all over the degree wheel and does not want to stay put. It does stay put sometimes but rarely. This done with the injectors unplugged.
2. the spark plugs get wet bad, but that should be the case due to a couple of attempts trying to start but FAILING.
3. My spark C LED seems to be staying on all the time, i checked spark on CYL#4 and it seems to be fine. What I understand is all three LEDs should stay off when the engine is not running and all should alternately flicker when cranking/running.

My fuel pump was not turning on when we were cranking it yesterday, it had issues previously like it would ground for too long/or never stop grounding when the ignition is turned on. sometimes the relay would flicker. i thought it was the software or my settings kept reflashing the ECU thinking that was the problem. After searching the forum found out that Q2 is the culprit. Will need to change that out.

That about it, a whole lot of cranking but no start at all.

[apexi3016]

Hi Guys,

I ran the TachRef program and this is what i got. I dont see any cam signal. Does this mean that my 2nd VR conditioner is not sending anything to MS board?



Could this explain the wandering cranking advance?

[Matt Cramer]

TachRef doesn't show the cam signal AFAIK. Use the composite logger instead.

[apexi3016]

Hi Matt,

Thanks for that, will do.

Attached is my log while cranking. I have a sync error 11 too few teeth before second trigger.

Rajieev.

[Matt Cramer]

I specifically need a composite log, not a regular data log.

[jsmcortina]

For some information about the tooth/composite loggers see here:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/MS2 ... ogger.html

James

[apexi3016]

Hi James,

Understood.

Will post it up once i have one.

Thanks.

Rajieev.

[apexi3016]

Hi James,

Here's the composite logs i've got. Sometimes i have sync loss and sometimes not.

[jasaircraft]

how did this go?

[apexi3016]

Hi Jas,

Not too good..

Tried and tried but still cant start..

My LED's are behaving funny. I have them set for COP, at first my spark C LED would stay always lit, i thought must be a bad transistor, after a couple of hundred more cranks found that the other two(Spark A and B) LEDs were also continuously lit.. tried re-flashing/changing setting but the same.. Soooo i changed out all three transistors for the LED's... put everything back and... all three LED's are STILL always lit.. said screw it, kept cranking, all 4 plugs had a healthy spark except for cylinder 4.. it would go on and off as and when it likes...

I pulled the MS2 card out and D14 and D16 still stayed on.. D15 went off... i checked the voltage for the MS2 card on the board and it all checked out at 4.95V..

I am starting to wonder if there is anything wrong with the MS2 card...I can flash the MS2 card with no probs.. hmmm..

My Ignition also seems to be alternating between two spots, one would be at about 0 degrees and the other one at about 40 degrees. Say out out 10 tries, i get 4 going to the 40 degrees. I know the engine wont start at 0 degrees, but trying to get the sparks consistent before starting.

I also constantly keep getting sync error 17.

My composite logger sometimes shows errors and sometimes not (the RED line). and if there were errors, it will be at the beginning of cranking..and there will be no errors after that..

Me and my bro pulled the engine out of the car to try to start the engine with the dizzy on instead of with the COP's. Engine is in a KE70, unless i bash or cut the firewall, i wont be able to fit the dizzy in.

My mission now is to at least try to start the engine on the stand with the standard dizzy before going to COP.



Rajieev.

[nismoautoxr]

FWIW I have a 20v 4AGE running on the stock 24/1 dizzy. #1 tooth angle is 25* and the cam signal trigger is set to "rising and falling" . If i set it to rising or falling only it had a difficult time syncing and would kick back on startups and timing was erratic. May not have anything to do with your difficultys but thought I would share that.

[muythaibxr]

You should not be using rising and falling with this engine. That is only for use with engines that have hall sensors on the cam and a cam sync that lasts a whole rev.

If you need that to get sync something is wrong with your setup. I run roughly the same settings but with the 2nd trigger on the rising edge and it starts and runs fine. I did this with MS2 and a Zeal board (with pin 14 grounded on the lm1815) and on ms3+ms3x.

Ken

[muythaibxr]

I believe sync error 17 happens due to noise issues. How is your MS grounded? Powered? Are you using shielded VR wires?

Ken

[apexi3016]

FWIW I have a 20v 4AGE running on the stock 24/1 dizzy. #1 tooth angle is 25* and the cam signal trigger is set to "rising and falling" . If i set it to rising or falling only it had a difficult time syncing and would kick back on startups and timing was erratic. May not have anything to do with your difficultys but thought I would share that.

Hi Nismo,

Thanks for sharing, i'm sure it'll come handy one way or another.

Rajieev.

[apexi3016]

I believe sync error 17 happens due to noise issues. How is your MS grounded? Powered? Are you using shielded VR wires?

Ken

Hi Ken,

First off I took the standard Loom apart and only kept what is needed.

Everything/all is grounded to the negative terminal of the battery.

Also From the negative terminal there is one thick ground wire running to the engine block.

And There is one more thick cable running from the negative terminal to the chassis.

the MS is powered with a relay running direct off the battery(relay is turned on by a switch), this relay in turn gives power to a second and third relay, which are the fuel pump relay, and power to COPs and injector relay.

All supplies has fuses etc.

The alternator is in place, belt is in.. but not connected up to the battery... not charging anything.

The VR wires are from the standard loom, did not extend them or whatsoever.. the shielding for this is also grounded to the battery's negative terminal.


Any ideas whats wrong with the LED's??

Rajieev.